Need Help getting power without Forced Induction

[MikeM7]

Originally Posted by diBreezy

So if the conversion was any type of concern for you don't let it be.

The conversion isn't a concern, I'm more concerned with things like reliability and fuel efficiency. If I can get the hp I want without extra wear and tear/risk, and without my mpg dropping significantly, that's the route I want to go. From what I've read, E85 will drop mpg pretty significantly.

As for reliability, I realize that the harder your engine works, the more wear and tear, so I understand that my two goals may be counterproductive. Just trying to keep it to a minimum. That said, It's a concern I have with the power blocks too.. any thoughts on that?

I know I can search this stuff, but It's information overload.. I could read about one aspect of one mod for a day and still not understand it fully. It's also really difficult to find a specific answer to a specific question sometimes.. some of these threads could be books.

One last question.. if I've already got K&N drop in and OFT, and have powerblocks on the way, how far off would you say I am from the 230hp goal?

Edit: Last last question.. what is "op" in your list of mods?

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by diBreezy

I have actually very similar goals to you. In order to reach 250whp I did the math and this is what I came up with.

cold air
uel headers
op
catted front
catback exhaust

wheels, tires, breaks, clutch, flywheel and ditch weight

I don't want to get into an argument with the engineers in this thread, but...

So if you drop about 200 lbs, run OFT with e85 tune and everything else I mentioned your clone is going to get pretty damn near 250whp

HOWEVER, it is going to cost you six grand to get there. (- labor)

This is basically my route, plus a good set of brakes. The goal eventually is a SC, possibly electric, but I want to take this route first for a couple reasons, mostly revolved around me learning how cars work. That is why everything behind the header is going to be 3". The total price I mention in this post is for 2.5" pipes. When you upgrade to FI the header and the cold air intake (CAI) have to go, but everything else can stay, so might as well plan ahead, even if it is a couple years down the road.


Oh I almsot forgot. everything from cold air to catback + OFT will cost you just under $3k for the parts. Labor is another story tho... Anyway, those parts and an e85 tune should get you to your "acceptable" 230whp. Just for reference, the bone stock FRS runs approximately 161whp so that's roughly a 40% increase in whp. I hope that is still "acceptable" for you.

I hate to burst your bubble, but you're not going to be anywhere near 250WHP with those mods. You'll be just over 200WHP.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by diBreezy

So if you drop about 200 lbs, run OFT with e85 tune and everything else I mentioned your clone is going to get pretty damn near 250whp

What does weight have to do with HP?

[2much]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

What does weight have to do with HP?

I think he is translating the 200lb weight loss to less-than-modest hp gain.

Also even on e85 I highly doubt you will ever hit 230 whp. Are there examples of this that I am not aware of?

[MikeM7]

Originally Posted by diBreezy

I don't want to get into an argument with the engineers in this thread, but...

So much for that Idea

Originally Posted by 2much

I think he is translating the 200lb weight loss to less-than-modest hp gain.

Also even on e85 I highly doubt you will ever hit 230 whp. Are there examples of this that I am not aware of?

Random question, if the car is marketed at 200hp, then why does everyone measure by whp? More accurate measurement? It throws me off when I'm thinking my car is ~200hp stock, yet someone says thousands of dollars in performance mods will barely get you to 200. I'm basing my desires off of having owned a "240 hp" car, and I'm sure that wasn't to the wheels. So I should clarify that what I really want is whatever 230-250hp is in whp.. I guess.

Sorry for being such a noob.

[2much]

Originally Posted by MikeM7

So much for that Idea




Random question, if the car is marketed at 200hp, then why does everyone measure by whp? More accurate measurement? It throws me off when I'm thinking my car is ~200hp stock, yet someone says thousands of dollars in performance mods will barely get you to 200. I'm basing my desires off of having owned a "240 hp" car, and I'm sure that wasn't to the wheels. So I should clarify that what I really want is whatever 230-250hp is in whp.. I guess.

Sorry for being such a noob.

No need to apologize, we are all here to learn. and troll I guess.
WHP is simply more specific and accurate to a given car. It takes into account drivetrain loss, and therefore things that people spend money on are factored into the equation (like wheels).
It probably also has to do with the fact that most manufacturers put the same engine in multiple cars. It's easier to just rate the power at the engine that way.
I'm sure there's a handful of other reasons too.

[steve99]

Originally Posted by MikeM7

So much for that Idea




Random question, if the car is marketed at 200hp, then why does everyone measure by whp? More accurate measurement? It throws me off when I'm thinking my car is ~200hp stock, yet someone says thousands of dollars in performance mods will barely get you to 200. I'm basing my desires off of having owned a "240 hp" car, and I'm sure that wasn't to the wheels. So I should clarify that what I really want is whatever 230-250hp is in whp.. I guess.

Sorry for being such a noob.

Dynos used by tuners are roller dynos or hub dynos that measure wheel horsepower.

It generally a bit of hassle to pull the motor out to get engine or flywheel hp readings. When aftermarket guys qoute engine or flywheel hp they have measured the wheel hp and just use an uplift factor to calculate engine or flywheel hp using an average drivetrain loss factor, cosworth do that.

manufactures quote flywheel or engine hp as they probably do a gazillion hours of testing on a dyno with just an engine and no car and as other guy said same engine used in multiple cars.

[Fakk]

Originally Posted by MikeM7

Edit: Last last question.. what is "op" in your list of mods?

I don't think anyone answered you. Overpipe!

[MikeM7]

Originally Posted by Fakk

I don't think anyone answered you. Overpipe!

Ah, of course. Ty

[D K]

VISA Its everywhere you want to be.

[cf6mech]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

What does weight have to do with HP?

Newton's second law ( F=Ma ) .



http://www.virtualnerd.com/intro-phy...on-formula.php

[stugray]

Originally Posted by cf6mech

Newton's second law ( F=Ma ) .



http://www.virtualnerd.com/intro-phy...on-formula.php

That still has nothing to do with hp. in F=ma, F= "Force" and force is not equal to hp.

You can measure engine hp before ever putting it in a car, so the hp # has absolutely nothing to do with car weight.

Although some people incorrectly believe that if you shed mass from the rotating assembly that it directly equates to extra hp. It does not.

[jflogerzi]

Just get a tune headers and axle back call it done

[KoolBRZ]

Originally Posted by MikeM7

This is coming from a novice, so please don't be too harsh if I'm way off, but this is what I've come up with...

My picks right now for power on a budget (compared to FI)

(With OFT Tune)
-Crawford Billet Power Blocks - $400 ~15hp http://openflashtablet.com/Automotiv...BPB/index.html

-Openflash Header - $695 ~10-15hp http://www.openflashtablet.com/Autom...OFH/index.html

-Grimspeed Intake - $375 ~5-10hp http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78902

I know combining mods can have both positive and negative impacts, so if someone could tell me a rough estimate of the total hp gain I'd appreciate it, and hopefully it's helpful to OP.

Also if you don't like these brands for whatever reason, why and what would you recommend?

Also, I didn't list E85 tune because I don't yet understand it or the negative side effects, but would consider it.

Feedback appreciated.

1. Are you planning on going FI? If you are planning on going with the electric SC, you might want to use your CAI with it, and that requires a removable elbow. The Skunk2 CAI has a removable elbow, and that's why I got it, so I could use it with the Electric SC when they get to my name on the list. It's still in development though, so there's a long wait time for the electric SC.

2. Are you driving a manual or auto? When most people say they want power, they really want acceleration. Changing your final drive gears will give much better acceleration with only a small effect on economy. I like the 4.875 for the auto, and 4.3, or 4.55 for the manual.

3. Learn to scale your MAF. No MAF scale is perfect, even the stock one. Small changes to the MAF scale have effects you can feel and even hear, and give better acceleration the closer you come to your goal of 0 STFT/LTFT, (fuel trims). Steve99 and codename47 have some very good links and guides for doing this yourself. Since you already have an OFT, you can download RomRaider for free and do this at no additional cost.