Why ft-86 is interesting?

[Champion]

Originally Posted by Snaps

70NYD, the graphs IS IN NO WAY a dyno graph of an engine, it DOES NOT show the torque curve of an engine.

What the line represents is how much torque is required at a specified rpm to achieve 200hp. As the rpm increases, you need less torque to achieve 200hp - or on the other hand, as torque increases you need less rpm to achieve 200hp.

lol i didnt understand the graph until you explained it now it makes perfect sense

[Chemist]

Originally Posted by Snaps

70NYD, the graphs IS IN NO WAY a dyno graph of an engine, it DOES NOT show the torque curve of an engine.

What the line represents is how much torque is required at a specified rpm to achieve 200hp. As the rpm increases, you need less torque to achieve 200hp - or on the other hand, as torque increases you need less rpm to achieve 200hp.

Chemist, I agree with the majority of your points, except the last one. I think 6500rpm is a very low rev limit for a 2.0L 4 cylinder. For example, the 4AGE in the Toyota Trueno/Levin revs to ~8000rpm, and that's beggining to be an old engine, I'm sure they could push this one to at least 7500rpm, which would require quite a low torque to achieve 200hp. This is why I think this engine will be over 200hp and will be dissappointed if it's anything under 200.

Oh heck yeah, I agree with you completely- I sincerely hope that the engine peaks well beyond 6500 RPM and I'm not necessarily saying it won't. Between Yamaha and Toyota they've already got the experience and know-how to produce high-revving engines (2zzge or as mentioned the BEAMS 3SGE). But, we're talking about what the engine will be capable of, not what Toyota releases. It may be heavily detuned for all we know (which the tuners might love).

For the fun of it let's imagine this engine is a slightly larger copy of the 2zzge (1.8L, 180hp, 11.5:1 C.R.). Linearly, a 2.0L 2zzge would make 200 hp. There we go. Of course, with the new technological goodies, we hope there will be more.

But until the specs are released I'll just keep reminding myself that no matter what the engineers promise, the company may opt for a lower power output to meet future emission or fuel consumption standards, or maybe they'll pull out the "it's enough power for the platform" card like with the last generation MR2 and call it a night.

I will say that I can't remember a car in recent history that has spawned so much suspense, anticipation and quite frankly drama as the FT-86 has...

Cheers!

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by Chemist

Oh heck yeah, I agree with you completely- I sincerely hope that the engine peaks well beyond 6500 RPM and I'm not necessarily saying it won't. Between Yamaha and Toyota they've already got the experience and know-how to produce high-revving engines (2zzge or as mentioned the BEAMS 3SGE). But, we're talking about what the engine will be capable of, not what Toyota releases. It may be heavily detuned for all we know (which the tuners might love).

For the fun of it let's imagine this engine is a slightly larger copy of the 2zzge (1.8L, 180hp, 11.5:1 C.R.). Linearly, a 2.0L 2zzge would make 200 hp. There we go. Of course, with the new technological goodies, we hope there will be more.

But until the specs are released I'll just keep reminding myself that no matter what the engineers promise, the company may opt for a lower power output to meet future emission or fuel consumption standards, or maybe they'll pull out the "it's enough power for the platform" card like with the last generation MR2 and call it a night.

I will say that I can't remember a car in recent history that has spawned so much suspense, anticipation and quite frankly drama as the FT-86 has...

Cheers!

Its more accurate to contrast with the same engine variation, 2zzge is a inline-4 which acts and performs very differently dynamically than a boxter.

The 2.0 Flat-4 N/A EJ204 makes 190hp and several customers claims it gets 31city and 38highway. This way we can get closer to compare apples to apples.

The EJ204s is governed at 7k on the Impreza/Legacy 2.0R, but tops off at 9k on the limiter.

From a customer who had done an dyno run on his Impreza with EJ204

Max.power (Net),
kw(PS)/rpm 155 ps (114.00 kw) [152.88 HP] / 6400 rpm

Max.torque(Net),
N*m(kg*m)/rpm 20.0 kg*m (196.13 N*m) [144.64 ft-lb] / 3200 rpm

What happens if we factor in a subaru AWD driveline loss percentage of a conservative average of 20%, obviously we would see more power.

given the numbers, 180-190 hp at the crank, awd, and still give customers a happy economy of around 30+.

Lets take this information and translate, would you need more than 30+ mpg engine on a sports car? especially one that weighs in the sub 2700lb category? probably not seeing as how P:W greatly affects mileage. Would it make more crank power and still retain clean emissions and economy with VVT and D4-S? I would say so, and I am sure there is a formula or theory that backs that up within Toyota.

[70NYD]

sorry about those posts, i was fairly drunk last night had one too many tequila shots and even by the 2nd one i was worse
sorry ppl and i didnt mean to cause drama or offend anyone. i cant beilive i actualy got the 160 right in that state..

[Snaps]

^ Haha, it's no problem lol. We're all friends here and I didn't mean my post to come off as aggressive, if it did.

[Michel]

Porsche also has McPhersons in front, DW rear for the older models, multi link for the newer models..

Just fyi.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Chemist

Woah people, I see a lot of misinterpretation and misunderstanding here.

1. I'm not saying this engine can't attain 200 hp, I was simply blasting the persistent rumor that it's expected to arrive with 200 hp, a number that has never to my knowledge been released by Toyota.

Toyota never said the engine would have 200hp. Please read on though.

Originally Posted by Chemist

2. The graph is sound: It only pertains to a value of 200 hp- it simply shows what combination of torque and rotational speed are required to produce such power.

No it's not. I get what you are trying to put across, but it comes off as backwards. Torque makes hp, not the other way around. To many variables such as compression, injection type, lift, duration, combustion chamber shape to make it the proper context. Yes, what combination of torque and rotational speed are needed to make 200hp, but what is needed to make torque at a given rotational speed?

Originally Posted by Chemist

3. The 1.8L 2zzge engine (my favorite comparison, since it too was a high-output Yamaha/Toyota engine of similar displacement) with bolt-ons and properly tuned has been shown to produce upwards of 200 wheel horsepower (check out 9thgencorolla.com). With high-comp pistons and other fun items the hp jumps even higher. The problem with all this is that FT-86 was tasked with being affordable, which usually means car makers don't maximize the engine power. Heck, I even remember reports (rumors?) of Toyota having "environmental" plans for this engine, which I remember was interpreted as lowering the output of the engine.

Tetsuya Tada said that they could easily be greedy and get 230ps, but they would have to consider economy and emissions. Even so, I think they could still shoot very close. Whenever I come across the interview I will post it. Regardless, in an interview with Toyota people at the Geneva(?) motorshow, they admitted to a spanish journalist that they were aiming for roughly a 12hp/lb power-weight ratio. I've posted that info here before.

Originally Posted by Chemist

4. You also need to take into account that an engine's peak hp is not usually at the redline which seems to be an assumption some of you are making. A engine with 140 ft-lb @ 7500 RPM will probably have a redline around 8k+. That puts it somewhat into the higher revving category which would require additional engineering. Of course, as we all hope, the direct injection feature of this engine should increase torque enough that it makes 200 hp without resorting to high-RPM engineering (or in my dreams a high torque/high revving Boxer monster).

A lot of my arguments arose from earlier times in other discussion threads- mainly that the FT-86 would attain peak hp at somewhere less than 7k RPM (AKA armchair discussions). For instance, say someone announced that they suspected the engine would make peak HP at 6500 RPM but that is still would make 200 hp. Looking at the graph that means it will have to produce a minimum of 162 ft-lbs of torque. That seems pretty high for a 2.0L N.A. mass-produced engine even with "cutting edge technology".

The 3SGE beams in the Altezza produces 160ft-lbs @ 6400 RPM. Makes peak hp (207) at 7600rpm. It'd be making at least 190hp by 6500rpm. The red top versions have a little less hp, but peak at 7000rpm, similar tq figure, but peak @ 4800 rpm. I don't quite get what you are arguing at, but I'm also not sure who said it will get peak hp before 7k rpm.

None the less, we already know that D4-S improves peak torque by roughly 10%, so it really wouldn't be that far fetched to think that it could make 200hp by 6500rpm (if we use the 3SGE as a comparative base of course)

Originally Posted by Chemist

I guess it all winds down to this: Can this engine make 200 hp? Of course. Can it do it without revving over, say, 6.5k RPM? That's a little less clear. Will it arrive on the market with 200 hp? Who knows, Toyota hasn't told us yet. Do I want it to make 200 hp? Hell yes.

No hard feelings among anyone here.

Why should it have to make peak hp under 6500rpm? Either way

hp = (TQ*RPM)/5252. If it can make 165ft/lbs by 6500 rpm, then it will be making 200hp by 6500rpm, and more on it's way to peak power and redline. Will that be the case? Who knows, we'll have to wait and see.

Originally Posted by Snaps

Chemist, I agree with the majority of your points, except the last one. I think 6500rpm is a very low rev limit for a 2.0L 4 cylinder. For example, the 4AGE in the Toyota Trueno/Levin revs to ~8000rpm, and that's beggining to be an old engine, I'm sure they could push this one to at least 7500rpm, which would require quite a low torque to achieve 200hp. This is why I think this engine will be over 200hp and will be dissappointed if it's anything under 200.

Beginning to be? It was already an ancient engine when they stopped making it 8-10 years ago

Originally Posted by Michel

Porsche also has McPhersons in front, DW rear for the older models, multi link for the newer models..

Just fyi.

Forgot about them!

[Snaps]

^ Haha, fair point.

Yours too Michel. As long as Toyota sets the suspension up right, then it should handle well.

[FT-86GOD]

OKAY, I've had a few beers and only just come across this post even though its old... Im tired, a bit pissy and i have only read the first page but WTF!!!!!!!!

I thought this forum was all about the AE-86 being re-developed FINALLY.. Wait NO NO NO its so much more than that... Im Aussie, we have V8 turbo/supercharged cars on our roads pushing 500kw every wknd we go out... Does anyone watch drifting!!!! The FT-86 has the possibilty to revamp toyotas ................ Wait im not even going into this, have u guys not watched initial D..... AAHHH!!! i wont even bother cause i know anyone who thinks like me wont even need me to explain my pissy self... MX-5 hahaha wat a joke... Awesome car cause its my MUMS( still was well built though, and i destroy it when i drive it LOL).... And to every guy/***( with the roof down u batty boys ) in one i pull up at the lights and give the WANK sign to when im in my ute, well id like to say u know who u r dont ya and before i wrote this id think they would never read it cause its an FT-86 site and not a fairys-r-us-anonymous is it??? Well now yas know who u R!!.......... The FT is potentially the best drift car since the S15 with the looks to match... The 370z had a chance but it was ugly and had no turbo..... The R35 GTR had the potential the power but AWD all the way which ='s no fun for us drift enthusiasts. Maybe im wrong but if u think i am ur a prick..... LOL The FT-86 is everything i could ever want plus more plus plus.... I could go on but im a bit lost now... Hahaha U get the point... It is Japanese so its solid, reliable and its built to be sideways with a warranty to come with...... Its gonna be released by the car company that produced the 2JZ!!!!!!!!! FOR $60,000AUS Its not about why but more about how lucky we all r.. Ill get a chance to drive a REAL street go-kart before petrol prices make it impossible... Do u not realize we will be telling our kids about these cars like we will talk about where we was when the bombs hit the trade centres..... Its life changing.... Never as much as the 9-11 thing but its up there... Done.....

Night ....

FT-86 IS GOD

[Snaps]

Ow, that hurt my brain trying to decipher that wall of text... Maybe you shouldn't come on the forums after drinking :P

I get the feeling you're one of these guys that drifts and does burnouts on public roads and not on a racetrack?

Also, if you're making a point about the FT having 'only' 200hp when compared to cars like the V8 Holden Commodore and V8 Ford Falcon, then you're on the wrong forum.... This car will weigh almost half as much as either of those cars, it doesn't need all that much power to A) go as fast and B) Handle MUCH better. It's not a car you are going to be doing a burnout in effortlessly at every traffic light.

[Matador]

rofl @ batty boys. Are you really an aussie, or are you from the caribbean? lmao lmao... couldn't read past that... lol

[FT-86GOD]

Hahaha hung over todaY....... A wall of text is a well put way of saying it... Yes SNAPS im a bit irresponsible at times on the roads but not on occupied streets... Barbagallo race track is a bit of hike to get to all the time but we have alot of un-occupied one way in one way out industrial areas we can hit on occasions.... And in reference to high powered fords and holdens they r 2ton plus cars and no where as fun as a light weight FT being that its almost like a street go-kart..... The holdens/fords might have power but there not built for handling and high speeds like the FT will be.... It was all praise for the FT... Im over the underpowered poor handling salon cars we call 'sports cars' over here..... Cant wait.... Ow... And in regards to only 200hp??? Thats all good an well until i strap up a big hks turbo package to it....P.S do more drinking then typing for me. :happy0180:

[Snaps]

OK, now I'm racking my brain to find a point to yours, and consequently my posts XD

Yes SNAPS im a bit irresponsible at times on the roads but not on occupied streets...

Fair enough then

[iLoveSpeed]

Beeeeecause it's a Toyota Also Mr. Toyoda said that it'll be a great car to drift in .