Innovate (Sprintex) Supercharger Owners Topic

[DeliciousTuning]

Originally Posted by sam69

From all my research 10:1 would be better and some say 10.5 so

I've ordered 10: 1's

Here is a good read on what you are asking.

http://www.xcceleration.com/cr-boost%20101.htm

Cheers,
William Knose
Delicious Tuning

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by BobbyBlue86

Well first off... its a "takes power to make power system." So lowering the compression would rob power from the engine and thus increasing the amount of % robbed by the blower.

Also if you are spinning it out of its efficiency range to get more boost out of it, then why lower the compression? From the charts that have been posted in the 335 testing thread, it seems like even the stock pulley is having a drastic drop off at the high side of the rev range.

So my thoughts would be to build the engine to be able to hold all the low end torque and added heat... and building it to make it go back to the same power you would have gotten out of the stock CR seems like a waste.

Now I am no expert, but it just seems like the most logical way to go.

If running E85, compression doesn't need to be changed because knock limits are gone.

If running pump fuel then yes he is right in wanting to reduce compression. On this high compression motor you get to a boost level where increasing boost demands retarding the timing too much that your net effect is 0 increase in power.

A 335 blower that runs at 19 psi will demand a ton of ignition retard in order to not knock.

When you are dealing with a fuel that has knock thresholds, lowering the compression is always a good idea.

For example on 91 octane with my setup (GT3076 turbo) going from 8 psi to 12 psi netted 0 increase in power due to having to pull out timing to avoid detonation. Both psi levels put down 280 whp. If the compression ratio was lower on my engine, I would be able to gain whp by upping the boost from 8 to 12 psi. And the power gained by upping the boost would more than compensate for the smaller drop in power due to lowering compression.

The gain in power from lowering the CR and being able to increase the boost is always higher than increasing the CR and having to lower the boost.

If someone wants to run a 335 blower at 19 psi on pump gas, then the CR needs to come down.

People have tested the power effects of raising compression for decades, and the most optimistic results are about 3% more power with an additional point of compression (going from 9:1 to 10:1, for example). All combinations will be limited by detonation at some boost and timing threshold, regardless of the fuel used. The decrease in compression allows you to run more boost, which introduces more oxygen into the cylinder. Raising the boost from 14psi to 15psi (just a 1psi increase) adds an additional 3.4% of oxygen. So right there, you are already past the break-even mark of losing a point of compression. And obviously, lowering the compression a full point allows you to run much more than 1 additional psi of boost. In other words, you always pick up more power by adding boost and lowering compression, because power potential is based primarily on your ability to burn fuel, and that is directly proportional to the amount of oxygen that you have in the cylinder. Raising compression doesn't change the amount of oxygen/fuel in the cylinder; it just squeezes it a bit more.

example from the article:

We see that at 8.5:1 CR we can run 14.7psi of boost. But at 7.5:1 we can run 23psi of boost (and still maintain the 12.0:1 ECR). We only gave up 1 point of compression (3% max power) and yet we gained 28% more oxygen (28% more power potential). Suddenly it's quite obvious why top fuel is running 5:1 compression, that's where all the power is!!

[brianhj]

That's what I thought.. I'd always heard CR should be lowered when going with FI

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by brianhj

That's what I thought.. I'd always heard CR should be lowered when going with FI

On a fuel that knocks.

Luckily for a lot of the country, sweet E85 corn juice is available and you can make 500+ whp on the stock 12.5 CR + some boost.

[brianhj]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

On a fuel that knocks.

Luckily for a lot of the country, sweet E85 corn juice is available and you can make 500 whp on the stock 12.5 CR + some boost.

That would be glorious

[BobbyBlue86]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

If running E85, compression doesn't need to be changed because knock limits are gone.

If running pump fuel then yes he is right in wanting to reduce compression. On this high compression motor you get to a boost level where increasing boost demands retarding the timing too much that your net effect is 0 increase in power.

A 335 blower that runs at 19 psi will demand a ton of ignition retard in order to not knock.

When you are dealing with a fuel that has knock thresholds, lowering the compression is always a good idea.

For example on 91 octane with my setup (GT3076 turbo) going from 8 psi to 12 psi netted 0 increase in power due to having to pull out timing to avoid detonation. Both psi levels put down 280 whp. If the compression ratio was lower on my engine, I would be able to gain whp by upping the boost from 8 to 12 psi. And the power gained by upping the boost would more than compensate for the smaller drop in power due to lowering compression.

The gain in power from lowering the CR and being able to increase the boost is always higher than increasing the CR and having to lower the boost.

If someone wants to run a 335 blower at 19 psi on pump gas, then the CR needs to come down.

Wouldn't 19 PSI on 12.5 CR be more than 19 PSI on 10 CR though? If knock is the reason to lower it, then fuel is something you'd need to consider over lowering the CR right? I just don't think lowering the CR on THIS application would really net you anything more than just being more reliable? If that?

Originally Posted by moto-mike

That does have a good deal of merit, but the "safe boost limit" I think is still vague. We've installed and tuned a bunch of kraftwerks C38 kits which spin to 15 psi. No issues on them so far, many of which run pump gas. I've had several customers overboost to 17+ psi on bad wastegate turbo setups, all have lived with our failsafe using reduced timings.

But if you were to ask me two years ago what the safe boost level is, I'd probably say 7 psi then. What we're finding is that with the DI system at 17 psi and pump gas on the 12.5:1 CR we're running about the same ignition timing that we ran on the 10.5:1 MX5s at 9 psi. So that tells me we have room to go before autoignition. So we can keep cranking the boost up and do fine by retarding the timing to keep the pressure down on the ring lands and the rods/bearings. If I didn't think that was the case I wouldn't have run this on pump gas, but as is the case we did fine through several WOT runs in 4th gear.

That is not to say I would recommend it, but I think it can be done. With e40 and up it is a completely different animal though, and on e70+ we can hit the same timings we were running on the 210 kit at 12 psi. So the motor definitely can take it on e85.

Another very important point is that this is a supercharger. If you want to run 10 psi on pump and 17 psi on e85, it is as simple as making a map mode that limits throttle with EcuTek. That is a VERY effective way to control boost, and we've used it on poorly put together turbo systems that creep. Add in as much valve overlap as you can to spit fresh air out, and then close the throttle/kill ignition timing. Lots of backend work, but completely transparent to the driver. Simply a low/high power map when the fuel is right.

This makes me think that if you are limited to run only pump gas you shouldn't be running this set up period. If you have only crappy pump gas, stick with the 210 or go with a different kit. Upping the PSI on a twin screw application means you have to over spin the blower and doing so brings it out of its efficiency range and increasing the chances of auto-ignition. So building the motor to a lower CR would seem to negate putting the 335 over the 210 on.

If there is something I am missing, please let me know as I am still trying to understand all of this and a simple google search has taken me no where. Lol

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by BobbyBlue86

Wouldn't 19 PSI on 12.5 CR be more than 19 PSI on 10 CR though? If knock is the reason to lower it, then fuel is something you'd need to consider over lowering the CR right? I just don't think lowering the CR on THIS application would really net you anything more than just being more reliable? If that?

If there is something I am missing, please let me know as I am still trying to understand all of this and a simple google search has taken me no where. Lol

If you read the article or look at the examples I gave, it should become clear.

I'll give you another hypothetical example:

fuel: pump gas

Sprintex210 @ 10 psi + 12.5 CR = 240 whp
Sprintex335 @ 19 psi + 12.5 CR = 270 whp
Sprintex335 @ 19 psi + 10 CR = 330 whp

"why" you ask? Because ignition timing has to be super retarded in order to run 19 psi without knock on a 12.5:1 engine. This ignition timing doesn't need to be super retarded on a 10:1 engine. Ignition timing is important in making power.

ignition timing might look like:

Sprintex210 @ 10 psi + 12.5 CR = max of 23 deg of ignition advance
Sprintex335 @ 19 psi + 12.5 CR = max of 10 deg of ignition advance
Sprintex335 @ 19 psi + 10 CR = max of 17 deg of ignition advance

[BobbyBlue86]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

If you read the article or look at the examples I gave, it should become clear.

I'll give you another hypothetical example:

fuel: pump gas

Sprintex210 @ 10 psi + 12.5 CR = 240 whp
Sprintex335 @ 19 psi + 12.5 CR = 270 whp
Sprintex335 @ 19 psi + 10 CR = 330 whp

"why" you ask? Because ignition timing has to be super retarded in order to run 19 psi without knock on a 12.5:1 engine. This ignition timing doesn't need to be super retarded on a 10:1 engine. Ignition timing is important in making power.

ignition timing might look like:

Sprintex210 @ 10 psi + 12.5 CR = max of 23 deg of ignition advance
Sprintex335 @ 19 psi + 12.5 CR = max of 10 deg of ignition advance
Sprintex335 @ 19 psi + 10 CR = max of 17 deg of ignition advance

Sprintex335 @ 19 psi + 12.5 CR = 270 whp
Sprintex335 @ 19 psi + 10 CR = 330 whp

^This does not make sense? Because the article said the "max PSI" could be increased to such and such netting a ~28% increase in oxygen thus netting more power. But in a twin screw application, over spinning the blower brings it out of the efficiency range which increases the chance of auto-ignition (basically creating more heat and not really much increase in PSI).

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by BobbyBlue86

Sprintex335 @ 19 psi + 12.5 CR = 270 whp
Sprintex335 @ 19 psi + 10 CR = 330 whp

^This does not make sense? Because the article said the "max PSI" could be increased to such and such netting a ~28% increase in oxygen thus netting more power. But in a twin screw application, over spinning the blower brings it out of the efficiency range which increases the chance of auto-ignition (basically creating more heat and not really much increase in PSI).

Don't introduce a new variable. The hypothetical examples above are assuming the blower is not being over spun with the standard pulley. I chose 19 psi because that is what moto mike saw in his tests of the 335 with a standard pulley. I doubt he is purposely overspinning the 335.

The basic idea is if you want to run higher psi (like the psi that the 335 pumps out) you can't stick with the 12.5:1 CR and hope to make big power and/or keep the motor together. By lowering the CR you are allowing for knock threshold to be raised and the ignition timing advance levels to be brought back up so you can efficiently make more power with the boost it is delivering.

Here is another way of looking at it:

Sprintex335 @ 15 psi + 12.5 CR = 270 whp <---- limited by knock
Sprintex335 @ 19 psi + 12.5 CR = 270 whp <---- because you are limited already by knock you have to reduce ignition timing drastically so you actually don't gain
Sprintex335 @ 19 psi + 10.0 CR = 330 whp <---- you lose a little bit of power due to the drop in CR, BUT you can gain a ton of power because you can advance the ignition timing back up to normal levels (as close as you can to MBT without seeing knock) [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_brake_torque"]Maximum brake torque - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]



Look at it another way:

With the same turbo GT3076R on 91 pump

GT86: 8 psi + 12.5:1 CR = 280 whp max <--- upping the boost wont give me any more power
Evo 8: 8 psi + 8.8:1 CR = 250 whp <--- but evo can up the boost drastically to make up for this lower CR
Evo 8: 24 psi + 8.8:1 CR = 450 whp <--- see how their max power is raised because their CR is lower and thus they can raise the boost? This is similar to "my CR is lower now, so now I can swap my 210 blower (10 psi) for the 335 blower (19 psi) and make more power safely.

For reference: Evo 8, 24 psi, GT3076 91 oct, 8.8:1 CR

[BobbyBlue86]

I guess what I might be getting mixed up is what makes the power...

I can understand that 19 PSI at 12.5 = CR of 26 (Im pulling this number out of my butt)
And that 30 PSI at 9 CR = CR of 26 also, but has more volume of air! That makes sense! But 19 PSI for both and lowering the CR increasing power is where i don't... Lol

In this sense (being the twin screw application), does timing really have that great of an effect on it?

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by BobbyBlue86

I guess what I might be getting mixed up is what makes the power...

I can understand that 19 PSI at 12.5 = CR of 26 (Im pulling this number out of my butt)
And that 30 PSI at 9 CR = CR of 26 also, but has more volume of air! That makes sense! But 19 PSI for both and lowering the CR increasing power is where i don't... Lol

In this sense (being the twin screw application), does timing really have that great of an effect on it?

Yes, timing is everything.

To give you an idea of how much timing matters, when going from 8 psi to 12 psi, timing had to be pulled back by 5 degrees. So i raised boost by 4 psi but had to pull back so much timing that the theoretical gains due to increased boost were negated. The result was 0 increase in power.

You can apply this to the 335 at 19 psi. @ 19 psi If you are able to advance the timing by 5 degrees by lowering your CR (and assuming you are not at MBT yet), then you have gained a bunch of power.

[BobbyBlue86]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

Yes, timing is everything.

To give you an idea of how much timing matters, when going from 8 psi to 12 psi, timing had to be pulled back by 5 degrees. So i raised boost by 4 psi but had to pull back so much timing that the theoretical gains due to increased boost were negated. The result was 0 increase in power.

You can apply this to the 335 at 19 psi. @ 19 psi If you are able to advance the timing by 5 degrees by lowering your CR (and assuming you are not at MBT yet), then you have gained a bunch of power.

Thanks for clearing all that up for me! I appreciate it a lot!

[sam69]

Originally Posted by brianhj

Boost levels aren't high enough with the 335 to benefit from a lower CR?

So your saying that 19 psi isn't enough boost to lower the comp ratio and you wouldn't see any benefit from lower the comp ?

I think sw20kosh is way more on track with his posts .

The 335 can pump more than 19 psi, I believe it's good for +2 bar which is quite substantial .

[Fizz]

Originally Posted by DeliciousTuning

We customize each tune to each customer. So their is no standard package for all, more of a recommended setup.

With that in mind we are working to improve our website to offer more options (which I am sure gets confusing). We are working on short explanations of each to give a better idea of what each feature/option does.

As for the throttle control.

MAP 1: SOFT
MAP 2: STANDARD & Auto Throttle-Blip
MAP 3: SPORT (Optional - Fuel Type: E85 or 93)
MAP 4: DRAG & Auto Throttle-Blip (Optional - Fuel Type: E85 or 93)

STANDARD is what we usually offer most customers if nothing specific is requested. This has the most normal feel for the vehicle and offer a solid feel of control from the pedal.

SOFT is what it states. It has a very light feeling to it. Something for those that want a super nice control from the pedal. It is incredibly linear to the point of almost being annoying, just keep pushing and pushing down to get more power.

SPORT is for those of you that run autocross or track event or even canyon/country road runs. It is fairly aggressive with a quick response from the throttle. Great for in and out of tight corners and something most track goers enjoy.

DRAG is literally down to the floor as fast as possible. No restrictions just all out throttle response. We have found this to be extremely aggressive and something to use sparingly. It is at the opposite side of the spectrum from soft.

Cheers,
William Knose
Delicious Tuning

I just flashed the Innovate Stg2 tune, and first thing I noticed when driving off was the lethargic throttle response, which seems like there's nothing much happening in the first 5mm of throttle pedal travel. Needed to give it more gas so I didn't stall at lights.

Initially I put this down to the "just flashed" symptom where the ECU takes awhile to get up to speed. But reading Bill's post I wonder if it's possible to switch throttle map to "Sport" instead.....because at the moment it feels like its on the "Soft" setting as described above.

Also noticed some bucking happening when taking off quickly, where the car jerks momentarily as soon as I've released the clutch pedal and press on the throttle.

Pretty sure Bill will be able sorts these issues out, and apart from that, it's really smooth to drive and the biggest improvement I've noticed was the total elimination of shift-knock and tip-in knock at WOT.