2015 86CUP rules - **DRAFT** Please provide feedback!

[juliog]

Originally Posted by renfield90

I scored my stock class autocross car and it's not eligible for the stock class - aftermarket 17x7 wheels, 225 Rivals, and a K&N air filter are enough to kick me out. Maybe I'm not the target audience for your stock class, and that's fine, but it strikes me as too restrictive. Just my 2 cents.

Could always put the oem filter back, takes 2 minutes

This is a time attack series. Stock suspension is 0 points.


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[renfield90]

Originally Posted by juliog

Could always put the oem filter back, takes 2 minutes

Originally Posted by renfield90

I could swap my K&N out for a paper filter, flash my ECU, and end up faster.

Already covered that, I think you're missing my point. This rule seems broken. A $40 mod adds points and is a smaller power gain than a $500 mod (assuming you buy an OFT or get an EcuTek tune) that doesn't cost points. Not to mention that this suddenly becomes a must-have mod as 7-10hp is pretty substantial in what is very close to a spec class.

If your goal for stock class is "as cheap and as close to stock as possible" it seems like ECU flashes and intake plumbing changes should be 0.25 points each and air filters should be free. What's to stop me from subtly swiss-cheesing an "oem" filter? At what point is it no longer an "oem" filter? Does it really matter? (No it doesn't, because the power gains are a rounding error, which is why you should just let filters be free and ignore it).

Good to hear that it's time attack, I'll see about putting an event or two on my calendar next year.

[rb6freak]

0.25 - catless front pipe

This bugs me. Puts me at 7.125 ...

The stock front pipe is not that restrictive. And I don't even have a front pipe, just a downpipe.

Either way, I'm excited for the next year on the track with you all.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by renfield90

Excuse my ignorance, but is this a time trial/time attack series or wheel to wheel racing?

I'm an outsider looking in, but I've got some feedback. If this isn't wheel to wheel I might try to run an event or two but I wouldn't compete in the whole series, so feel free to disregard what I have to say.

I'm a little puzzled as to why a drop in filter costs 0.25 points (gains maybe 1-2 HP) and an ECU reflash is free (gains more than that). I could swap my K&N out for a paper filter, flash my ECU, and end up faster. IMO drop in filters should be free, modifications to the intake itself should cost points.

ECU flashes should maybe cost points if you're serious about limiting costs in stock class - how much does an OFT or a day at the dyno shop cost in terms of dollars? IMO there's a balance between allowing popular "I just bought the car and I'm gonna mod it" stuff and trying to limit cost needed to run up front. I know that's not easy.

Another thing I don't see listed at all is the stock springs/aftermarket shocks combo. How many points is this worth?

I scored my stock class autocross car and it's not eligible for the stock class - aftermarket 17x7 wheels, 225 Rivals, and a K&N air filter are enough to kick me out. Maybe I'm not the target audience for your stock class, and that's fine, but it strikes me as too restrictive. Just my 2 cents.

A "drop in" can theoretically be no filter.

The ECU flash is free because the real gains are from the other mods, not the ECU itself. Additionally, it is, more or less, mandatory for the early cars, unless they want to keep refreshing their DI seals/injectors/engines. We don't want to penalize the guys with early builds.

□ 0.50 - Aftermarket damper with OEM springs

Stock class is called stock, because it is meant literally for stock cars with stock tires. You're more than welcome to throw on your stock rims and tires for the day and you would qualify. It's supposed to be extremely limiting.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Mad_Mike

□ 0.00 - OEM rear spoiler
□ 0.25 - Aftermarket rear spoiler (e.g. 5-axis, integrated duckbill in trunk)

In autox, the cs class allows 5axis because they are installed at the port to some cars. Also doesn't the FRS rs come with the new TRD duckbill spoiler, where would that fall.

□ 0.00 - OEM underbody panels, including Blue Edition panels

Are TRD panels also included?

If they're available as a factory option, then yes, they're included. (I'm actually not sure if they are)

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by renfield90

Already covered that, I think you're missing my point. This rule seems broken. A $40 mod adds points and is a smaller power gain than a $500 mod (assuming you buy an OFT or get an EcuTek tune) that doesn't cost points. Not to mention that this suddenly becomes a must-have mod as 7-10hp is pretty substantial in what is very close to a spec class.

If your goal for stock class is "as cheap and as close to stock as possible" it seems like ECU flashes and intake plumbing changes should be 0.25 points each and air filters should be free. What's to stop me from subtly swiss-cheesing an "oem" filter? At what point is it no longer an "oem" filter? Does it really matter? (No it doesn't, because the power gains are a rounding error, which is why you should just let filters be free and ignore it).

Good to hear that it's time attack, I'll see about putting an event or two on my calendar next year.

The rules are not built around cost.

If i wanted the most advantaged car possible, I can spend 15k to run a car in stock class, and destroy everyone.

What's the point of that? Bragging rights? It's just a casual time trial series for people to have fun at, with a great sense of community, and a relatively controlled environment to learn the limits of the car with.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by rb6freak

0.25 - catless front pipe

This bugs me. Puts me at 7.125 ...

The stock front pipe is not that restrictive. And I don't even have a front pipe, just a downpipe.

Either way, I'm excited for the next year on the track with you all.

Then put your stock front pipe on!

[rb6freak]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Then put your stock front pipe on!

It doesn't fit... How about making it .125 points? A header is .25 and I can't see the front pipe as being equivalent to the header.

[MINOCIN]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The rules are not built around cost ... It's just a casual time trial series for people to have fun at, with a great sense of community, and a relatively controlled environment to learn the limits of the car with.

Exactly. I know people like to be competitive, but in all seriousness just go out there and have fun guys. I already knew that I was going to track this car and mod it before I purchased it. The fact that there is a supportive community that also enjoys tracking and modding is just icing on the cake.

Personally, I wouldn't let some rules and points prevent me from doing or undoing any mods. I fully intend to enjoy my car to the best of my abilities. My talent tends to run out before the car does anyway, so while my mods may give me an obvious advantage it's only there to mask my lack of skill. I totally give out point-bys though, so don't worry about getting stuck behind me on the track. I'm the point-by-giving fucking master

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The rules are not built around cost.

If i wanted the most advantaged car possible, I can spend 15k to run a car in stock class, and destroy everyone.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

86CUP CLASSES

Stock Class - 0.5 points maximum
The purpose of this class is to keep costs down and be attractive to a newcomer with a stock or minimally modified FRS or BRZ.

Emphasis is mine. Just sayin...don't blame me for reading!

I don't think you'll scare newcomers away if you allow drop-in filters. No one is going to completely remove their filter, that's a silly idea given the attendance profile of stock. You haven't refuted my point here at all, which is that lumping drop in filters with full intake replacements is incongruous at best.

[jflogerzi]

Looks like stock for me

0.25 - Any aftermarket intake system or modification to OEM intake (including Filters, except TRD drop-in)
0.25 - Any aftermarket header without a catalytic converter
0.00 - Aftermarket ECU or OEM ECU reflash
-1.00 - Any street tire TW 220-300 (MPSS Tires)
0.125 - 5-7.5" width aftermarket wheels
0.50 - Aftermarket springs with OEM dampers

Free Mods!
Brake Pads, Fluid, OIL Cooler, and Torque sending data to an old cracked S3 on my dash via Bluetooth.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by rb6freak

It doesn't fit... How about making it .125 points? A header is .25 and I can't see the front pipe as being equivalent to the header.

Put on your stock header then! Or... run less sticky tires... :p

[D K]

How about making any mod thats less than a 100 bucks a free mod?


Everything looks great in the rules, but would it be possible to make them more simple?

I let one of my friends read the rules who is more of a street guy and the first thing was: wow, these are complex.

Im just trying to help.

Dont shoot the messenger.

[rb6freak]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Put on your stock header then! Or... run less sticky tires... :p

I'm just providing honest feedback that you asked for. The point system could use a little work. Not going to make changes to my setup.

I just don't believe a catless front pipe provides the same gains as a catless header. Leaving it at that.