Wings/Spoilers: You're probably doing it wrong.

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by shiumai

dismissing something as b.s. requires that you can support that statement with good, sound explanations that we can understand and make sense to us.

No, it doesn't. Either the guy has the required information to make his assertions or he does not. My background is completely irrelevant.

Without detailed 3d models or a wind tunnel or any sort of testing whatsoever, this guy is just guessing.

[continuecrushing]

I'm calling BS.

I've seen many fast sounding hondas, and many of them had large wings. I know those guys do stuff on a budget, so theres no way they would invest in a spoiler/wing/aerodynamic device if it didn't help.

With that said, there is NO WAY I would ever step foot in a VTEC vehicle without a large wing to keep the car planted.

[Hoosier Daddy]

Saying that adding a spoiler reduces drag compared to without or compared to a wing just isn't something that you can definitively say - and definitely isn't correct with regards to stockcars. First of all it's bad to compare a gen 4 vs a gen 5 (COT) for analysis purposes. There are many differences that differentiate the flows between those two vehicles. However a COT with the wing gone and spoiler added, whether a super speedway (tall version) or intermediate spoiler added more drag when the cars where updated in 2010. A hydraulics engineer? How about ask a motorsports engineer.

Just as a second example. A Daytona prototype has both a rear wing and a rear spoiler. The effect of increasing angle of attack of the spoiler, with no extension height (ie short spoiler) and no wicker, by 5 degrees adds over 150% more drag than increasing it's spec wing angle of attack by the same amount, no matter the wicker.

[boredom.is.me]

Originally Posted by Shutter

I'm calling BS.

I've seen many fast sounding hondas, and many of them had large wings. I know those guys do stuff on a budget, so theres no way they would invest in a spoiler/wing/aerodynamic device if it didn't help.

With that said, there is NO WAY I would ever step foot in a VTEC vehicle without a large wing to keep the car planted.

troll post of the day

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Shutter

I'm calling BS.

I've seen many fast sounding hondas, and many of them had large wings. I know those guys do stuff on a budget, so theres no way they would invest in a spoiler/wing/aerodynamic device if it didn't help.

With that said, there is NO WAY I would ever step foot in a VTEC vehicle without a large wing to keep the car planted.

Needs a nut behind the wheel upgrade.

[Joakim3]

Originally Posted by boredom.is.me

troll post of the day

Fuccckkkk beat me to it

[campy]

Originally Posted by Shutter

I'm calling BS.

I've seen many fast sounding hondas, and many of them had large wings. I know those guys do stuff on a budget, so theres no way they would invest in a spoiler/wing/aerodynamic device if it didn't help.

With that said, there is NO WAY I would ever step foot in a VTEC vehicle without a large wing to keep the car planted.

lol we make fun of civics but I see more FRS/BRZs with taped-on front spoilers and wings to help keep those 150 raging horses planted.

[Joakim3]

Originally Posted by campy

lol we make fun of civics but I see more FRS/BRZs with taped-on front spoilers and wings to help keep those 150 raging horses planted.

Your are correct In this lol

A bone stock twin/triplet doesn't need a wing (even if its being tracked)

There's simply not enough to power for a legitament wing to actually become aerodynamically effective. The problem is with ~200hp the car simply can't get to consistent speeds where aero grip is beneficial.

You'd go faster in the corners and slower on the straight due to lol-drag...... essentially negating corner speed gains

I'd get a Wasp Splitter, full metal/plastic custom underbody panels, duckbill spoiler and Driveway labs V1 diffuser before going the full on racing wing route. Almost no drag penalty while reducing most if not all lift so I can corner faster but still retain what little straight line speed the cars have

[Hoosier Daddy]

Originally Posted by Joakim3

There's simply not enough to power for a legitament wing to actually become aerodynamically effective. The problem is with ~200hp the car simply can't get to consistent speeds where aero grip is beneficial.

You'd go faster in the corners and slower on the straight due to lol-drag...... essentially negating corner speed gains

Well, this isn't really correct either most of the time.

Generally, more power would just make wings less beneficial! All else with the car equal of course. Wings, or added downforce in general, only benefit is it helps improve cornering speeds and always hurts straight line performance due to the additionally added drag that comes with it. Ultimately, the car with more power will be faster, but the change in lap times in relative perspective (% change, not absolute), would be less than the lower powered version by adding downforce and drag. The small additional grip gained from late entry and early exit phases would be erased by the increased drag of higher speeds down the straights.

Generally speaking the lower the top speeds, due to lack of power, adding wings will have less negative acceleration delta due to drag than a high powered car but improve cornering capacity in mostly the same way.

There are times where this wouldn't be the case, though, like high speed corners where a lower powered version can't get to a speed where the corner becomes grip limited (stays wot through the corner). In this case the higher powered car takes advantage of the wing to get higher cornering speeds because it's entry speed is higher. But could be marginal because unless it approaches these types of corners at much higher speeds then it may still be power limited anyway (still wot through the corner) and the wing wouldn't be of any help but actually hold it back.

[Joakim3]

Originally Posted by Hoosier Daddy

Well, this isn't really correct either most of the time.

Generally, more power would just make wings less beneficial! All else with the car equal of course. Wings, or added downforce in general, only benefit is it helps improve cornering speeds and always hurts straight line performance due to the additionally added drag that comes with it. Ultimately, the car with more power will be faster, but the change in lap times in relative perspective (% change, not absolute), would be less than the lower powered version by adding downforce and drag. The small additional grip gained from late entry and early exit phases would be erased by the increased drag of higher speeds down the straights.

Generally speaking the lower the top speeds, due to lack of power, adding wings will have less negative acceleration delta due to drag than a high powered car but improve cornering capacity in mostly the same way.

There are times where this wouldn't be the case, though, like high speed corners where a lower powered version can't get to a speed where the corner becomes grip limited (stays wot through the corner). In this case the higher powered car takes advantage of the wing to get higher cornering speeds because it's entry speed is higher. But could be marginal because unless it approaches these types of corners at much higher speeds then it may still be power limited anyway (still wot through the corner) and the wing wouldn't be of any help but actually hold it back.

I'd imagine the downforce vs. drag ratio would still benefit a high HP cars acceleration times until it got to sufficient speeds in which the car atp could mechanically down power without the need of aero, in which case you'd want the least amount of downforce (this is where active aero comes in).

That being said if the wing is creating that much drag that even including traction/acceleration the overall time decrease due to top end aero limitations I can definitely see and understand your point

Aerodynamic is such a bitch to work with lol


But apart from that, I definitely appreciate the input/knowledge, always good to learn a thing or two