SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by bimmer635csi

To stay in C-Street and be in the rules, you must run the Toyota/Subaru factory approved parts. This means no eccentrics.

Way to ruin this guy's day:

[bimmer635csi]

Originally Posted by bimmer635csi

To stay in C-Street and be in the rules, you must run the Toyota/Subaru factory approved parts. This means no eccentrics.

Originally Posted by qoncept

Way to ruin this guy's day:

I left the loophole so that they could still be run, just not officially.

[TRev]

Originally Posted by SeanRTR

Last year at nationals Trevor Jones was on MCS, and I think he was the fastest twin until the final run, when he pas passed by Laughlin running Koni yellows.

I was on the Koni's prior to the MCS so I had experience with the same car, same tires, just not the same event. I had zero events on the MCS prior to Nats other than on the test course so I would be shocked if I had the optimal settings...but the car was still amazing to drive. Not trying to take away anything from John as he drove very well, I feel my placement was more due to the car being on season old Z2's and my driving not being the best on day two.

Words cannot describe how much better the MCS felt over the Koni and even though I had never owned DA's the adjustments when made were much more predictable and noticeable compared to the Koni's.

The customer service at MCS is awesome too! I just sold my DA's as I no longer own the BRZ. I couldn't find one of the small rebound adjustment dials and Lex shipped one to the new buyer for free!

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by TRev

Words cannot describe how much better the MCS felt over the Koni and even though I had never owned DA's the adjustments when made were much more predictable and noticeable compared to the Koni's.

I wish I could go back and un-read this.

[SeanRTR]

Originally Posted by TRev

I was on the Koni's prior to the MCS so I had experience with the same car, same tires, just not the same event. I had zero events on the MCS prior to Nats other than on the test course so I would be shocked if I had the optimal settings...but the car was still amazing to drive. Not trying to take away anything from John as he drove very well, I feel my placement was more due to the car being on season old Z2's and my driving not being the best on day two.

Words cannot describe how much better the MCS felt over the Koni and even though I had never owned DA's the adjustments when made were much more predictable and noticeable compared to the Koni's.

The customer service at MCS is awesome too! I just sold my DA's as I no longer own the BRZ. I couldn't find one of the small rebound adjustment dials and Lex shipped one to the new buyer for free!

That is terrific service indeed, glad to hear they take care of the customers, even second hand! Shame you're no longer going to be around in CS.

[jdrxb9]

So on the shock options...

As I've posted before, my front Koni sports have leaked a tiny bit of oil from the adjusters from day 1 and this offseason I feel the need to address it even though I've never felt anything 'bad' from them performance-wise.

Simply replacing them with the MCS is an option, but I really can't see spending the 4k+. I do appreciate Trev's comments above. However, it wasn't enough to keep him in the car ;-) The Potocki's are no slouches and have generally good things to say about their MCS's, but it does not seem to be a really 'transformative' upgrade. Also, I've not seen any plots, but according to DWX, the MCS's are only digressive on compression, not rebound. Unless you go custom, of course, which puts you at 5k+

Kido posted ballpark Koni costs a while back and I recently contacted them to verify. My options are listed below in order of increasing cost. One interesting comment was that for custom work, the full strut will give better performance since they can use a larger, more digressive valve in that body vs the somewhat smaller insert body.

fixed OTS fronts                                                 $0
full set, custom, all SA (insert fronts)                       $880
full set, custom, all SA (full fronts)                       $1,270-
full set, custom, SA front (inserts), DA rear                $1,270
full set, custom, SA front (full), DA rear                   $1,660-
full set, custom, DA front (full), SA rear                   $1,700-
full set, custom, DA front (full), DA rear                   $2,090-

For the '-' options, I might get some cost recovery from selling my 'freshly warranteed' inserts, but it won't be much since new full fronts are on sale at TireRack for only $360/pr.

So I'm having a hard time deciding (mostly between '$0' and '$1270-') and throwing it out here for feedback.

On one hand, I know off the shelf SA's are good enough to trophy, maybe even to win if you are a Strano (which I'm not trying to prove I am). Also, I've had the BRZ longer than most and other options are starting to look more attractive (like John L's E92 if proven 'competitive') and money spent here is most likely sunk and not available to prep whatever comes next. Thirdly, I'm not sure I see the benefit of compression adjustability for auto-x: every guide I see says compression is just adjusted for wheel control over imperfections, not chassis control. Seems like setting this accurately would be impossible with the limited number of runs we get on any one particular course (and they are all different - even ones on the same site).

OTOH, I would like to give myself the best possible chance to do well and going in with 'one hand tied behind my back' is just silly. Also, I have basically zero seat time in any car with 'high end' shocks and would be curious to really see the difference (if any) with custom valving.

Thoughts?

[TRev]

Originally Posted by jdrxb9

However, it wasn't enough to keep him in the car ;-)

Rick butchering the C Street index and my thought that the 370Z was an over dog (especially at Pro's which was my Focus (pun intended) last year) is what made me want to sell the car more than anything. I already had the FiST on order prior to the 2015 index announcement not expecting C Street to get the help it did. Even then I toyed with keeping it (the FiST is/was still on order and I had not taken delivery) but Dave bought the shocks prior to me making the decision to keep it. Other reasons included it having over 20,000 miles and being two years old, i.e. warranty expiration soon and my automotive A.D.D.

[renfield90]

Here's a great post from the STX thread to show you why you want adjustable compression: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...postcount=1152

Bottom line is it's an extra weapon to bring to the fight. Another thing unique to street class is the opportunity to try some high compression values to simulate more spring. Might work for some people.

[jdrxb9]

Originally Posted by TRev

Rick butchering the C Street index and my thought that the 370Z was an over dog (especially at Pro's which was my Focus (pun intended) last year) is what made me want to sell the car more than anything. I already had the FiST on order prior to the 2015 index announcement not expecting C Street to get the help it did. Even then I toyed with keeping it (the FiST is/was still on order and I had not taken delivery) but Dave bought the shocks prior to me making the decision to keep it. Other reasons included it having over 20,000 miles and being two years old, i.e. warranty expiration soon and my automotive A.D.D.

Hey Trev - just joshin' a bit and didn't mean to put you on the defensive. As I said in Toledo: whatever does it for you - more power to you.

I'm actually up to almost 40k - no more bumper-to-bumper for me. And I wouldn't call it ADD, but my eye is definitely wandering.

[jdrxb9]

Originally Posted by renfield90

Here's a great post from the STX thread to show you why you want adjustable compression: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...postcount=1152

Bottom line is it's an extra weapon to bring to the fight. Another thing unique to street class is the opportunity to try some high compression values to simulate more spring. Might work for some people.

Guess I should've said every shock setup guide. I have seen a couple different versions of these flowcharts that prescribe adjusting the compression damping under certain circumstances. FYI this one seems to be found in Staniforth's "Competition Car Suspension" book, but originally written by Greg Simmons from Penske. I have no doubt DA gives you another knob to turn. Will that be any benefit when the contest is only 3+3 or 4+4+4 runs? (Assuming the reason you are adjusting is because the car was working well 'last time' and is now 'different' and 'needs fixed'.)

With the custom valving for street/stock auto-x, the damping would be 'aggressive' and 'increased' vs OTS in the low to mid speed - compression and rebound. I'm not expert enough to specify and they haven't talked specific numbers, but they do send the final data for the shocks as shipped.

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by jdrxb9

Guess I should've said every shock setup guide. I have seen a couple different versions of these flowcharts that prescribe adjusting the compression damping under certain circumstances. FYI this one seems to be found in Staniforth's "Competition Car Suspension" book, but originally written by Greg Simmons from Penske. I have no doubt DA gives you another knob to turn. Will that be any benefit when the contest is only 3+3 or 4+4+4 runs? (Assuming the reason you are adjusting is because the car was working well 'last time' and is now 'different' and 'needs fixed'.)

With the custom valving for street/stock auto-x, the damping would be 'aggressive' and 'increased' vs OTS in the low to mid speed - compression and rebound. I'm not expert enough to specify and they haven't talked specific numbers, but they do send the final data for the shocks as shipped.

I mean for proper (initial) setup. IMO you shouldn't be changing shock settings in between runs unless you run out of knobs to turn and the car is truly a pile of crap to drive - and even then, a lot of compression adjusters are in very inconvenient locations.

It's definitely nice to have for Saturday afternoon changes if the weather/lot conditions are playing hooky with your setup. Of course, chances are by then you're just trying to salvage your weekend, unless you're at a pro and then it's even more valuable. Twice this year at pros I got beat by people I was beating on Saturday because of the shock adjustments they made. Yes, I could've driven better, but obviously having knobs helped them.

Is it as important to have on stock-sprung car compared to, say, an STX car? Probably not, but I don't think it's possible for the twins to win at nats while leaving anything on the table. If that's not your goal then you probably don't need it.

[jdrxb9]

Originally Posted by renfield90

I mean for proper (initial) setup. IMO you shouldn't be changing shock settings in between runs unless you run out of knobs to turn and the car is truly a pile of crap to drive - and even then, a lot of compression adjusters are in very inconvenient locations.

It's definitely nice to have for Saturday afternoon changes if the weather/lot conditions are playing hooky with your setup. Of course, chances are by then you're just trying to salvage your weekend, unless you're at a pro and then it's even more valuable. Twice this year at pros I got beat by people I was beating on Saturday because of the shock adjustments they made. Yes, I could've driven better, but obviously having knobs helped them.

Is it as important to have on stock-sprung car compared to, say, an STX car? Probably not, but I don't think it's possible for the twins to win at nats while leaving anything on the table. If that's not your goal then you probably don't need it.

I agree shock adjustments are inferior to tire pressure changes for making 'day-of' adjustments.

So, initial/proper setup for compression is dependent on the surface, right? If the surface is always different (even on the same lot) and you don't get many runs, is having adjustability useful? Maybe at at Pro if you run into something unusually bumpy and you can guess well enough how much to turn the knob to make an improvement. Seems like I'd be just as well off with Koni's guess given that they have reasonable estimates of the unsprung weights, wheel rates, sprung weight and 'typical bumpiness'.

I tend to improve throughout the weekend anyway and actually ended up standing on runs 11&12 twice this year. Seems like too much knob twiddling could just as easily derail that.

Overall, I'm not worried about winning Nats as I don't seem to get along well with the 3+3 Nat/Tour format. I definitely prefer Pro's and I would like to try and hit my unmet goal from this year (despite taking a couple trinkets) of making it to the challenge round.

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by jdrxb9

I agree shock adjustments are inferior to tire pressure changes for making 'day-of' adjustments.

So, initial/proper setup for compression is dependent on the surface, right? If the surface is always different (even on the same lot) and you don't get many runs, is having adjustability useful? Maybe at at Pro if you run into something unusually bumpy and you can guess well enough how much to turn the knob to make an improvement. Seems like I'd be just as well off with Koni's guess given that they have reasonable estimates of the unsprung weights, wheel rates, sprung weight and 'typical bumpiness'.

I tend to improve throughout the weekend anyway and actually ended up standing on runs 11&12 twice this year. Seems like too much knob twiddling could just as easily derail that.

Overall, I'm not worried about winning Nats as I don't seem to get along well with the 3+3 Nat/Tour format. I definitely prefer Pro's and I would like to try and hit my unmet goal from this year (despite taking a couple trinkets) of making it to the challenge round.

All good points. I think you've talked yourself into a set of SAs.

Of course, in theory you already know correct compression for a given surface, but what if it's cold and rainy the next day? What if you're in a later heat when the course is more rubbered in and the data you have doesn't hold? You can drive through it and be successful, I'm simply saying DAs can make you slightly more successful.

Cheers and hope to see you at the pro finale next year.

[jdrxb9]

Originally Posted by renfield90

... I think you've talked yourself into a set of custom SAs. ...

Maybe fixed for ya and yeah, I don't mean to come across as closed minded. If nothing else, you've been a good sounding board.

Where are the 'off the shelf are good enough!' or 'don't waste your money on an uncompetitive car!' folks to argue the 'other side'?

Cheers and hope to see you at the pro finale next year.

Yeah, lots of reasons for me not being there this year, but maybe next.