Help selecting Coilovers, for my needs :)

[Mikeez]

Forget Japanese... it can be german. You guys made me change my mind.

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by Mikeez

Okay thanks I will take your words for it, but just out of the box... KW v3 are also street use and DD lol if I use oem top mount?

Originally Posted by Mikeez

Forget Japanese... it can be german. You guys made me change my mind.

KW V3 is a good street coilover. It's a bit limiting on track.

[Mikeez]

Originally Posted by CSG David

KW V3 is a good street coilover. It's a bit limiting on track.

I don't track, but what do you mean by limiting and what about the noise? Is there any weird sound to it if I tighten well and install it professionally like an engineer ?

Does the KW3 answers my need, as very comfortable in the roads for summer and heavy snow in winter?

Does it have performance aspect such as better handling and better corner

[8R6]

this thread is so frustrating that it's hilarious

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by Mikeez

I don't track, but what do you mean by limiting and what about the noise? Is there any weird sound to it if I tighten well and install it professionally like an engineer ?

Does the KW3 answers my need, as very comfortable in the roads for summer and heavy snow in winter?

Does it have performance aspect such as better handling and better corner

When it comes to sub-3500 coilovers, the ride quality is going to be very subjective. I do believe the KW V3 may work for you in terms of what you want. RS*R Black-i will be more comfortable than most out there, but it will not do anything for performance.

Noise wise, it should be almost stock. Follow the instructions, follow basic torque specs...you should be good.

[Mikeez]

Okay, so I am determined to buy the KW V3. I've change my mind, lol. German product it is. I will be upgrading at the same time the wheels and tires of my car. I am going to go 18x9 all around. I will get 245 or 255 /35r18. I will try to get sticky tires for the grip. I will drop the car either 0.5" or 0.8"
Coilover will be set to preset rebound and the other thing xD


My concerns are:
1. Are there going to be any over steer?
2. Cornering will be harder or firmer?

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Mikeez

I will drop the car either 0.5" or 0.8"

Why are these the only options you are limiting yourself to when the lower spring perches are on a screw meaning you can have any drop you want between .5 and .8 inch. Maybe .7" would be optimum.

Originally Posted by Mikeez

My concerns are:
1. Are there going to be any over steer?
2. Cornering will be harder or firmer?

My concern is you either don't know the questions you should be asking or you don't phrase your question to reflect what you actually want to know.

1 Do you mean steady state over-steer because over-steer can be induced with the throttle. Given they are aftermarket dampers by a huge German manufacturer they would not be selling with f/r spring rates that are biased towards over-steer. Fyi the standard rates are 6k/7k which is a little more biased towards over-steer than stock. Don't get too worked up about this as it is only a miniscule amount. The concern is when you go forced induction you will be able to induce over-steer on demand. Don't confuse this with the f/r spring ratio.

2 "Harder" is synonymous with "firmer". If you get one you will get the other.
It is the valving which has more impact on confort than the spring rates. As has been said many times in these forums it is possible to have a more comfortable ride with higher spring rates and good damping compared to lower rates with poor damping.

[Fastbrew]

My two most likely ignored cents.

Take a peek at Feal 441 coilovers. I have them on my BRZ and they are great. Odi knows his stuff. They use swift springs. You can choose your spring rates if you want to but the standard setup is fine.

I have some pics in my thread
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67968

$1350 for the set.
They might be %10 off right now.
http://www.rallyracingsuspension.com/page16.php

Then again - are you sure you want coilovers and not just a good spring set? The stock suspension is pretty damn good on these cars.

You should look around at the other stuff people add to their cars to be able to tweak everything needed for an alignment.

Good luck

[8R6]

Originally Posted by Mikeez

Okay, so I am determined to buy the KW V3. I've change my mind, lol. German product it is. I will be upgrading at the same time the wheels and tires of my car. I am going to go 18x9 all around. I will get 245 or 255 /35r18. I will try to get sticky tires for the grip. I will drop the car either 0.5" or 0.8"
Coilover will be set to preset rebound and the other thing xD


My concerns are:
1. Are there going to be any over steer?
2. Cornering will be harder or firmer?

based on these questions and how the thread started, honestly i think you should learn how your car handles and performs bone stock first. doing random mods to your car with zero direction is pointless. see what you love about the car and what you hate about the car... then pick whatever mods you want that will make you happy and make it worth the money. whether its shitty $500 coilovers or $7k race components. who knows, maybe the shitty quality ones are enough to make you happy. asking a bunch of questions you dont understand will just get you answers you dont understand.

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by BRGT86

based on these questions and how the thread started, honestly i think you should learn how your car handles and performs bone stock first. doing random mods to your car with zero direction is pointless. see what you love about the car and what you hate about the car... then pick whatever mods you want that will make you happy and make it worth the money. whether its shitty $500 coilovers or $7k race components. who knows, maybe the shitty quality ones are enough to make you happy. asking a bunch of questions you dont understand will just get you answers you dont understand.

His original goal was simply to get coilovers that will fit his wheels, so really most any cheap set will accomplish that goal.

It sounds like he's grown to understand there's a lot more to it than that though, and I would agree that he should do more research considering how much this short thread has changed his mind too. It's important to understand how the wheel and suspension mods affect one another, along with how they affect the rest of the car too.

[Mikeez]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

Why are these the only options you are limiting yourself to when the lower spring perches are on a screw meaning you can have any drop you want between .5 and .8 inch. Maybe .7" would be optimum.



My concern is you either don't know the questions you should be asking or you don't phrase your question to reflect what you actually want to know.

1 Do you mean steady state over-steer because over-steer can be induced with the throttle. Given they are aftermarket dampers by a huge German manufacturer they would not be selling with f/r spring rates that are biased towards over-steer. Fyi the standard rates are 6k/7k which is a little more biased towards over-steer than stock. Don't get too worked up about this as it is only a miniscule amount. The concern is when you go forced induction you will be able to induce over-steer on demand. Don't confuse this with the f/r spring ratio.

2 "Harder" is synonymous with "firmer". If you get one you will get the other.
It is the valving which has more impact on confort than the spring rates. As has been said many times in these forums it is possible to have a more comfortable ride with higher spring rates and good damping compared to lower rates with poor damping.

Correct me if I am wrong, I am not an expert.



The Stock FRS has about 2-3k rate springs, while the KW V3 has 6-7k respectively. The stock FRS was designed for comfortable ride. My question was: Having KW V3 installed, will I feel way stiffer in my driving? Mathematically, it will take more force to compress the springs and therefore it will be stiffer. Real time, how will it feel.


LOL, yes harder and firmer are synonyms. I am currently in my final exams period and if I don't get my questions answered, I'll stay curious.

Originally Posted by Fastbrew

My two most likely ignored cents.

Take a peek at Feal 441 coilovers. I have them on my BRZ and they are great. Odi knows his stuff. They use swift springs. You can choose your spring rates if you want to but the standard setup is fine.

I have some pics in my thread
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67968

$1350 for the set.
They might be %10 off right now.
http://www.rallyracingsuspension.com/page16.php

Then again - are you sure you want coilovers and not just a good spring set? The stock suspension is pretty damn good on these cars.

You should look around at the other stuff people add to their cars to be able to tweak everything needed for an alignment.

Good luck

Thank you, and I do look for people's journal. However, not everyone details their thread like you Good job. What do you mean by alignment, set-up and alignment is going to be done by a professional. I don't have the tools =p.

Originally Posted by BRGT86

based on these questions and how the thread started, honestly i think you should learn how your car handles and performs bone stock first. doing random mods to your car with zero direction is pointless. see what you love about the car and what you hate about the car... then pick whatever mods you want that will make you happy and make it worth the money. whether its shitty $500 coilovers or $7k race components. who knows, maybe the shitty quality ones are enough to make you happy. asking a bunch of questions you dont understand will just get you answers you dont understand.

Without disrespecting you, I did not force you to answer my questions. Please mind your business, thank you. For all those who have the courtesy to answer me, I appreciate your time. If no one answers me, then I will conduct better online research.

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

His original goal was simply to get coilovers that will fit his wheels, so really most any cheap set will accomplish that goal.

It sounds like he's grown to understand there's a lot more to it than that though, and I would agree that he should do more research considering how much this short thread has changed his mind too. It's important to understand how the wheel and suspension mods affect one another, along with how they affect the rest of the car too.

My goals are very complex, I do seek to change my coilover for additional further plans. It was just mentioned that I wanted to clear my wheels from the strut .

[cjd]

Originally Posted by Mikeez

The Stock FRS has about 2-3k rate springs, while the KW V3 has 6-7k respectively. The stock FRS was designed for comfortable ride. My question was: Having KW V3 installed, will I feel way stiffer in my driving? Mathematically, it will take more force to compress the springs and therefore it will be stiffer. Real time, how will it feel.

The CSG review thread of the Tein SRC has some really good bits in it on this topic. The valving and settings you choose have more to do with how harsh the ride is than spring rates, assuming the valving properly supports the rates you choose. You'll still notice the stiffer springs on the bigger bumps. In this case, there were some observations that a 10/12k rate could ride better than stock - and that is all down to the valving and specific setting choices. Of course, that setup is outside of your current budget - the key is matching springs to the valving.

There is also the long-running CSG/RCE thread worth a read, and also somewhere a "what not to do" thread.

This kind of decision is where some of these folks really can be helpful if you're willing to throw out any/all assumptions and bring a clear set of requirements (where you intend to end up with the car build matters!) and they can speak to what options will best meet your needs on this platform. You'll get spring rate recommendations if the defaults aren't ideal.

Budget (started at $1500, moved to $2k)
Intended drop (12-20mm)
Intended use (street in Montreal on not-so-great roads + ??)
Future HP plans (boost)
Other suspension upgrades planned (strut bar, though it actually has no bearing here)
Wheel/tire package(s) (18x9.5 or 18x9, tires??)

Too little drop is actually a problem for some coilover setups because you don't have enough droop left. Adding power can change your ability to add oversteer with the throttle. Just street use, street and show, Street + autoX, street + drag (don't see much of that around here), street + drift, street + HDPE, dedicated race car...

I've already seen some really good advice here from CSG and others - right now I'm honestly not quite sure what you're looking for in a setup since your decisions seem to be rather abrupt and wandering. We do know your hoped-for budget, your wheels, your intended drop, and the fact daily-drive comfort remains a key point in your setup choices. The patience and willingness of the experts around here to share and keep answering questions is mind boggling to me - very worth of respect and consideration.

If you're not fully clear on your needs, keep asking questions, ignoring the snipers, and answering any questions posed to you as well as you're able. I'm sure some of the changes in direction you've posted in this thread are due to additional reading/research, but since this thread is all about helping you, the 'why' might actually be useful info for those trying to help.

The things I'm sort-of curious about based on your line of questioning:
* have you ever had a car on a track - autox, or otherwise? Carting? What's the experience driving near the limits of a car?
* when you say your needs are complex, are we missing anything important? (I listed the things I've noted above)

Also, your response to well intentioned advice is sometimes coming across as dismissive and rude - disrespect doesn't go away if you say you're not going to and proceed to do so ...

C

[Mikeez]

Originally Posted by cjd

The CSG review thread of the Tein SRC has some really good bits in it on this topic. The valving and settings you choose have more to do with how harsh the ride is than spring rates, assuming the valving properly supports the rates you choose. You'll still notice the stiffer springs on the bigger bumps. In this case, there were some observations that a 10/12k rate could ride better than stock - and that is all down to the valving and specific setting choices. Of course, that setup is outside of your current budget - the key is matching springs to the valving.

There is also the long-running CSG/RCE thread worth a read, and also somewhere a "what not to do" thread.

This kind of decision is where some of these folks really can be helpful if you're willing to throw out any/all assumptions and bring a clear set of requirements (where you intend to end up with the car build matters!) and they can speak to what options will best meet your needs on this platform. You'll get spring rate recommendations if the defaults aren't ideal.

Budget (started at $1500, moved to $2k)
Intended drop (12-20cm)
Intended use (street in Montreal on not-so-great roads + ??)
Future HP plans (boost)
Other suspension upgrades planned (strut bar, though it actually has no bearing here)
Wheel/tire package(s) (18x9.5 or 18x9, tires??)

Too little drop is actually a problem for some coilover setups because you don't have enough droop left. Adding power can change your ability to add oversteer with the throttle. Just street use, street and show, Street + autoX, street + drag (don't see much of that around here), street + drift, street + HDPE, dedicated race car...

I've already seen some really good advice here from CSG and others - right now I'm honestly not quite sure what you're looking for in a setup since your decisions seem to be rather abrupt and wandering. We do know your hoped-for budget, your wheels, your intended drop, and the fact daily-drive comfort remains a key point in your setup choices. The patience and willingness of the experts around here to share and keep answering questions is mind boggling to me - very worth of respect and consideration.

If you're not fully clear on your needs, keep asking questions, ignoring the snipers, and answering any questions posed to you as well as you're able. I'm sure some of the changes in direction you've posted in this thread are due to additional reading/research, but since this thread is all about helping you, the 'why' might actually be useful info for those trying to help.

The things I'm sort-of curious about based on your line of questioning:
* have you ever had a car on a track - autox, or otherwise? Carting? What's the experience driving near the limits of a car?
* when you say your needs are complex, are we missing anything important? (I listed the things I've noted above)

Also, your response to well intentioned advice is sometimes coming across as dismissive and rude - disrespect doesn't go away if you say you're not going to and proceed to do so ...

C

I'll start off thanking you for the time you've spend. I read every part of your reply and I do understand that I've might disrespected some people by denying their advices. I hope to apologize if they see this: I am sorry.


You've followed me well, I am planning to get a turbocharged FRS by the 2015 summer or 2016 winter. The reason why for this upgrade is due to the fact that I want to push the car more for pleasure and I want the experience and the feeling of a boosted car.


Yes, I live in Montréal and we have heavy snow. I do not drive much in winter, because I take transits for University. The streets here are all broken up (cracked and potholes everywhere) and there are few speed bumps in my everyday roads.


I am planning on getting 18x9.0 wheels all around, the reason why is mostly because of the look. The reason I won't be going 9.5 is due to more weight and more surface area. Yes, that .5 makes a difference for me.


The reason of upgrading the suspension is for mainly increase in handling performance. Reducing weight, lowering the car and raising it in winter and finally to clear the wheels. I do of course care about comfort since I drive this car as my daily driven (or every 2 days LOL, joke).


I've driven rally cars and super cars on the track for a certain period of time. I am also studying in Engineering and I want to learn more about the car motion rather than calculating numbers every time.


I will make a Journal soon and tell you guys more about me, I think its part of the forum that I've left out. Hopefully soon, after exams!


--


Back to the coilover, I hope you guys know what I want from now.


I don't want to lower the car too much, from 0.5 to 1" drop is my limit. The car has been designed for a low center of gravity, I feel like if I lower it more and more that I will start affecting the design of the car. I want comfortable and not noisy coilovers. I want better handling on the street when cornering and of course a weight reduction D:

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by cjd

and also somewhere a "what not to do" thread.

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

How to screw up your cars handling and ride - step by step!

I remember the first time I drove a BRZ a little before it hit the streets and thinking....damn....Subaru/Toyota got serious.

Anyway, this is a list of things that I see owners doing to their 86's...often with good intentions and parts bought hoping to improve things, but they end up chasing more parts to get things right. All of these on their own are detrimental, but can sometimes be "worked around" to some extent. Unfortunately many cars check off multiple boxes and sometimes all of them...resulting in a car that is a big step back from the factory.

I'll skip "stanced" cars (slammed, stretched tires, massive camber)...I don't think anyone does that expecting not to sacrifice function for what they think looks good. Different strokes.

These are some of the common things I see:

1. Staggered wheels/tires
It's a good look and definitely makes your car look like it has a lot of power. Unfortunately our cars don't have a lot of power.
It's also a great way to build in some extra understeer that's difficult to tune out. Staggered wheels are common on cars with a lot of power but are not necessary MOST the time here.
This one CAN be worked around but there's just no need to complicate things.

2. Big ass heavy wheels
Even if you got a great deal on a buddy's 18x9.5 wheels, it may not be a great idea to use 27 lb steamrollers at each corner. Most of us don't need that much tire either. Keep it light and it'll feel like your dampers are much more capable. You'll stop and go faster too.

3. Big drop on lowering springs
If it looks a racecar then it must handle like one, right? Unfortunately, it doesn't exactly work like that. A little drop can improve things with proper spring rates, but past an inch or more and you start making big compromises and riding the bumpstops before you even hit a bump. It's a sure way to downgrade your handling. Aftermarket shocks may help in some ways, but don't solve the travel problem.

4. Big drop on coilovers
With some coilovers you don't need to worry about bump travel as much, but geometry is still a concern when lowering 2 inches. A big change in roll center height and changes in the dynamic alignment can be felt from the driver's seat...and it feels sloppy.

I know what you're thinking. There are a ton of cars on here that hit the track and handle well with a lowered ride height. If you must have that really low center of gravity than you must use very firm spring rates (and then quality dampers to match) or use geometry correction parts. That's what the fast guys and girls at the track are doing....not slamming their crappy coilovers to the ground and expecting all to be well.

5. Poor or mismatched dampers
Whether it's running very stiff springs on the stock shocks (or riding the firm bumpstops), or turning your adjustable dampers up to full stiff, damping that's not matched to the springs won't feel good. Underdamped will feel bouncy, floaty, and generally crappy in transitions. Overdamped will feel harsh, crashy, and might hurt your back. None of this is good for ride quality or handling.

Sometimes an adjustable won't have a "good" setting because the quality of the valving is just plain bad. This is more noticeable with firmer spring rates.

6. Alignment
Anything less than -1 degrees camber up front is a recipe for understeer. I still see people trying to get their camber "back to 0" after lowering. Don't do this! Tire wear isn't really a concern until you get to -2, so don't be shy...add a little camber and enjoy. Most enthusiasts will get BETTER and more even tire wear anyway. Toe is the tire killer.

7. Tire choice
Really stiff springs with all season or OEM tires can reduce grip as you'll be quickly/easily overloading the tire. Match your spring rates to your tire choice.

Running sticky tires on soft OEM springs is a problem too, but you will still gain grip from the tire. It'll just feel sloppy and move around a lot.

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Follow all of these steps and you can turn your well tuned factory BRZ/FRS into a sloppy, numb, slow reacting, pig of a car. Please don't though, it's too much fun when set up right.

- Andy

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