Pipe dreams and poor life choices

[mkivalex]

Originally Posted by PhoKingCool

I did not think the fire damage was this severe but instead of just the engine bay its more than 50% of the car! Are you positive that the structure integrity of the shell was not compromised? Are you gutting it out or trying to restore it back to the original specs?

+1, I think its a cool build, but from an engineering standpoint, that chassis has to be seriously compromised. Steel that is that thin, would not take that much to destroy the integrity beyond reasonable repair.


I could be completely wrong, but from the pictures, it looks pretty bad.

[shifter907]

This is definitely one of those "all or nothing" builds.
I wouldn't even know where to start if I bought it in that shape lol. Best of luck, and I can't wait to see more.

[SomeoneWhoIsntMe]

Originally Posted by mkivalex

+1, I think its a cool build, but from an engineering standpoint, that chassis has to be seriously compromised. Steel that is that thin, would not take that much to destroy the integrity beyond reasonable repair.


I could be completely wrong, but from the pictures, it looks pretty bad.

"From an engineering standpoint"... are you coming from an engineering background, or is this just wild speculation? I've spoken with a few actual mechanical engineers that have backgrounds in metallurgy, and I had a buddy ask around at his work (teir 1 auto supplier for transfer cases and other driveline components), and the general consensus seems to be that nobody knows for sure, but because you can't temper mild steel and e85 doesn't burn *that* hot, it's probably fine, so long as I keep an eye on it. the front end didn't warp or anything.

[PhoKingCool]

Originally Posted by SomeoneWhoIsntMe

"From an engineering standpoint"... are you coming from an engineering background, or is this just wild speculation? I've spoken with a few actual mechanical engineers that have backgrounds in metallurgy, and I had a buddy ask around at his work (teir 1 auto supplier for transfer cases and other driveline components), and the general consensus seems to be that nobody knows for sure, but because you can't temper mild steel and e85 doesn't burn *that* hot, it's probably fine, so long as I keep an eye on it. the front end didn't warp or anything.

Just as a precautionary step, I would definitely invest in additional braces in the areas that were seriously burned. Can't go wrong with extra structural support.

[mkivalex]

Originally Posted by SomeoneWhoIsntMe

"From an engineering standpoint"... are you coming from an engineering background, or is this just wild speculation? I've spoken with a few actual mechanical engineers that have backgrounds in metallurgy, and I had a buddy ask around at his work (teir 1 auto supplier for transfer cases and other driveline components), and the general consensus seems to be that nobody knows for sure, but because you can't temper mild steel and e85 doesn't burn *that* hot, it's probably fine, so long as I keep an eye on it. the front end didn't warp or anything.

Yes I can back up this 'engineering standpoint' as a Mechanical engineer specializing in Automotive manufacturing. Like I said I think it's a badass build. I come from the Supra community and have a love for JZ motors. I myself would just be concerned seeing that much fire damage. But I will be following the build

[SomeoneWhoIsntMe]

Originally Posted by PhoKingCool

Just as a precautionary step, I would definitely invest in additional braces in the areas that were seriously burned. Can't go wrong with extra structural support.

Unfortunately, I can't just go welding in shit all over the place, if I get too creative the chassis won't be FD legal. Normally I wouldn't care, but the way things are going, it looks like more pro-am series might start using the FD rulebook, and going through all this effort for a car that won't pass tech would suck.

[kodyo]

Originally Posted by SomeoneWhoIsntMe

@PhoKingCool

It's just steel, I'm sure it'll be fine. Normal cold rolled steel doesn't heat treat. Nobody has been able to come up with a convincing argument otherwise, and I've asked around. The only worry I have is getting all the surface rust and bullshit off the metal so new paint won't lift right off.

If it's cold rolled steel, it will be affected by a heat treat. i.e. Cold rolling is a strain hardening process, which can be stress relieved by heat treating, resulting in a softer material.

However, I'm sure that isn't what you meant. If the metal that is used is in the annealed state, then heating it up and cooling it down may not have an affect. But heating it up and quenching it with a water hose has a chance of making the metal harder, and therefore, more brittle. Obviously more of an issue with high carbon steels, but you never know.

Another potential risk may come from the fact that modern cars use a lot of adhesives between various panels, so another worry might be that some adhesive was being used structurally in some fashion, which may lead to a failure.

Based on what I've read on ethanol fires, I think it's well within the range of affecting material properties. Values I have seen range from 600C to 900C, but it's hard to know what the actual temperature was in the car as it's dependent on oxygen supply.

Going forward, I doubt there's much you could do to ensure it's fit for purpose. If you knew the hardness of the material in it's original state, you could then hardness punch the material from the fire and compare the two. Or theoretically correlate the new hardness value back to ultimate strength and compare. However, the material may not be thick enough to hardness test. So you're options are likely to build it, drive it, and see if it fails. Or reinforce affected areas.

[SomeoneWhoIsntMe]

Originally Posted by kodyo

If it's cold rolled steel, it will be affected by a heat treat. i.e. Cold rolling is a strain hardening process, which can be stress relieved by heat treating, resulting in a softer material.

However, I'm sure that isn't what you meant. If the metal that is used is in the annealed state, then heating it up and cooling it down may not have an affect. But heating it up and quenching it with a water hose has a chance of making the metal harder, and therefore, more brittle. Obviously more of an issue with high carbon steels, but you never know.

Another potential risk may come from the fact that modern cars use a lot of adhesives between various panels, so another worry might be that some adhesive was being used structurally in some fashion, which may lead to a failure.

Based on what I've read on ethanol fires, I think it's well within the range of affecting material properties. Values I have seen range from 600C to 900C, but it's hard to know what the actual temperature was in the car as it's dependent on oxygen supply.

Going forward, I doubt there's much you could do to ensure it's fit for purpose. If you knew the hardness of the material in it's original state, you could then hardness punch the material from the fire and compare the two. Or theoretically correlate the new hardness value back to ultimate strength and compare. However, the material may not be thick enough to hardness test. So you're options are likely to build it, drive it, and see if it fails. Or reinforce affected areas.

More info on the hardness test? I'm sure the strut tower and frame rails have enough meat in them to test, and the rear of the car doesn't have any damage so I can just test back there as well and compare.

Is it a destructive test?

[mkivalex]

Rockwell hardness test


http://www.hardnesstesters.com/Appli...s-Testing.aspx

[kodyo]

Originally Posted by mkivalex

Rockwell hardness test


http://www.hardnesstesters.com/Appli...s-Testing.aspx

Originally Posted by SomeoneWhoIsntMe

More info on the hardness test? I'm sure the strut tower and frame rails have enough meat in them to test, and the rear of the car doesn't have any damage so I can just test back there as well and compare.

Is it a destructive test?

Pretty much what mkivalex said. We use Rockwell C very often and it is not destructive. We specify hardness testing for pretty much every part we make to confirm mechanical properties to what is allowable per our material specifications. The main problem I see is finding a way to remove a part of the car to test as most of the Rockwell C testers I've seen are benchtop models. That, and you'll want to find information on what is considered acceptable for the material that was used originally.

Also, the last paragraph of the link posted by mkivalex may offer some more insight:

"Sheet metal can be too thin and too soft for testing on a particular Rockwell scale without exceeding minimum thickness requirements and potentially indenting the test anvil. In this case a diamond anvil can be used to provide a consistent influence of the result. Another special case in testing cold rolled sheet metal is that work hardening can create a gradient of hardness through the sample so any test is measuring the average of the hardness over the depth of indentation effect. In this case any Rockwell test result is going to be subject to doubt, there is often a history of testing using a particular scale on a particular material that operators are used to and able to functionally interpret."

[SomeoneWhoIsntMe]

bump, any chance I can get this moved to the engine swaps forum?

[SomeoneWhoIsntMe]

also I started thinking about the interior and how I'm going to lay that out, since that's going to be one of the first things to happen



what do you guys think of the above layouts? am I picking the right gauges? could I come up with something better?

[slicktop]

http://www.speedhut.com/gallery/

Eventually, I'll be doing a custom setup through these guys.

[SomeoneWhoIsntMe]

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2058520

listed the engine and trans for sale, people are talking shit about the price. anyone have any idea what that stuff is honestly worth / what I should be asking for it?