FR-S vs 2012 Ford Focus ST

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

I don't agree with your "inner idiot" your inner idiot is just that, an idiot. You claimed FWD sucked for performance driving, I proved that it doesn't. You likely don't actually track drive or instruct anything and are pulling this 100% from your ass (Hell even if you were an instructor that doesn't mean you know what you’re talking about. My friend’s wife is a Skip Barber instructor and sure she can drive, hell she's an INSANELY good driver but she doesn't know a thing about how the vehicles work.) Some of the issues inherent with FWD vehicles are present in both RWD and AWD vehicles as well. Wheel hop happens with rear wheel also, the need for an LSD isn't lessened simply because the driven wheels are at the back now, about the only thing you DON'T have to worry about is torque steer. You can get a FWD vehicle to hang its tail out with the best of them reverse staggering your wheels. You reverse stagger wheels in a FWD vehicle if you feel you need the oversteer, you stagger wheels on a RWD vehicle to cut back on oversteer. You set up your suspension up to assist with the toe changes caused by the vehicle unloading some of its weight during hard acceleration (for example, one of the things I did in addition to adjusting my alignment settings was I set my SVT up to be an inch higher in the rear.); just like on a RWD vehicle before you hit the track you'd be in better shape if you gave yourself a bit more negative camber to get rid of the factory propensity to understeer.

In other words, just because you have to do something different to the other doesn't mean its better. It means you have to do something different; you're still making modifications.

How can FWD be equal to RWD in terms of performance driving? Easy, you spend fricken money and put work into your car the same way you spend money and put work into your RWD or AWD car. Like I said, stock for stock I could put money down that the ST would beat the FRS around a track. So if that's your 'focus' then you just lost to one.

Edit: Dunno why I'm bothering though, if there's one thing I've learned its that when people so far gone in their stubborn mindset see an arguement that differs from their own they don't waste a single second considering it.

In absolutely equal terms RWD>FWD. But we are talking purely theoretical. Identical cars except drive wheels. But back in reality that comes down to application such as you describe.

[Sushi]

Originally Posted by ducks

I cross shopped the FRS, BRZ, Genesis coupe, Mazda3, Mazdaspeed3, WRX, Jetta GLI, and Mustang V6. Focus ST would have been on the list but I can't wait for it to come out.

Basically, I was looking for a $25k or under daily driver that wouldn't bore me to death. There's plenty of options if you keep an open mind and don't try to pigeonhole the cars into having ONE function.

I agree with your statement! People should always keep an open mind.

I don't agree with people saying that you can't compare cars just because they are FWD and RWD. Different people have different priorities. It's all about balancing these priorities. For example my priorities are price, aesthetics, performance, practicality and fun! GT86 and Focus ST are similarly priced with similar MPG (I think). Focus ST is more practical due to the larger rear seats. Focus ST looks good, BUT the GT86 is looks better (in my opinion). Driving GT86 is probably going to be more fun, BUT I'm sure driving the Focus ST is going to be fun as well (maybe in different areas). Not everyone make their car purchase decision based on solely FWD vs RWD, it's about compromising, no car is perfect... (in this price range anyway lol).

With that being said, I am currently leaning towards GT86

[Allch Chcar]

There is also the fact that the vast majority of my time is regular driving. FWD is more practical in a DD. And with a proper setup, it can still be fun to drive.

I'm not trying to saw RWD isn't better than FWD, I've driven RWD. But I need to keep perspective here.

I'm withholding my opinion until I test drive anyway.

[SVTSHC]

Originally Posted by Dimman

In absolutely equal terms RWD>FWD. But we are talking purely theoretical. Identical cars except drive wheels. But back in reality that comes down to application such as you describe.

Precisely. There are too many extraneous factors to consider before you can declare a specific layout the end all/be all performance solution, and thats before you add the human element. Realistically until you start getting into the upper horsepower ranges (something like 400+) any layout can do just as well as the other.

This also got me thinking earlier, we still have yet to see what results combining mechanical and electral systems could yield. Example: Revoknuckle (which has proven effective at 350bHP) + An electronic aid like this Torque vectoring system + mechanical LSD (none of this e-diff business)= ????

[Dr.Science]

Back to the Focus ST vs BRZ/FR-S, I really wish we were getting the ST wagon in the US. I realize that it's even more of a difference between that and the BRZ/FR-S, but to have a wagon at that price with that performance would be really tempting.

Carry on.

[Turbowned]

Cool story, bro! FWD still sucks though.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

Cool story, bro! FWD still sucks though.

Tell that to the Renault Megane Trophy 265.

[Turbowned]

I will. I'll tell it to Chris Rado's 1200hp tC, too. I don't give a f***!

[mines13]

Originally Posted by SpeedR

So apparently you agree with my “inner idiot” that FWD has problems that need to be corrected for performance driving.

Thank you for proving my point.

As I stated the inherent problems of FWD can be overcome the point is that there are inherent problems.

I'm sorry but what? There are far greater factors in handling dynamics then simply which wheels are driven. Suspension geometry, suspension configuration, CG, weight distribution, steering box vs rack and pinion, location of the steering assembly, chassis rigidity, etc. If it were simply a matter of "FWD can be over come the point is that there are inherent problems" is pretty absurd. There are no more "inherent problems" with a FWD car vs a RWD car. (I have tracked FWD and RWD vehicles, with similar unequal-length control arms F/R and LSD's equipped. If FWD just being inherently inferior were the case, then a Ford LTD would be a better canyon carver then an Integra, regardless of trim level.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Dimman

In absolutely equal terms RWD>FWD. But we are talking purely theoretical. Identical cars except drive wheels. But back in reality that comes down to application such as you describe.

Yes, this point is correct, but has been overlooked in this thread for some reason.

All things kept equal, RWD > FWD. But application/execution plays a critical role. Hence, you can have FWD cars designed to out-handle RWD cars. Some good examples of FWD cars were mentioned already: Megane Trophy 265, Integra Type-R, etc.

[Capt Canuck]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

Tell that to the Renault Megane Trophy 265.

Don't even bother. We could put down a pretty big eff-off list of great front-drivers, but some folks are just too damn 'ard and way too much of a wheelsman, to dare lower themselves to be caught dead in an FWD

[SpeedR]

Originally Posted by SVTSHC

I don't agree with your "inner idiot" your inner idiot is just that, an idiot. You claimed FWD sucked for performance driving, I proved that it doesn't. You likely don't actually track drive or instruct anything and are pulling this 100% from your ass (Hell even if you were an instructor that doesn't mean you know what you’re talking about. My friend’s wife is a Skip Barber instructor and sure she can drive, hell she's an INSANELY good driver but she doesn't know a thing about how the vehicles work.) Some of the issues inherent with FWD vehicles are present in both RWD and AWD vehicles as well. Wheel hop happens with rear wheel also, the need for an LSD isn't lessened simply because the driven wheels are at the back now, about the only thing you DON'T have to worry about is torque steer. You can get a FWD vehicle to hang its tail out with the best of them reverse staggering your wheels. You reverse stagger wheels in a FWD vehicle if you feel you need the oversteer, you stagger wheels on a RWD vehicle to cut back on oversteer. You set up your suspension up to assist with the toe changes caused by the vehicle unloading some of its weight during hard acceleration (for example, one of the things I did in addition to adjusting my alignment settings was I set my SVT up to be an inch higher in the rear.); just like on a RWD vehicle before you hit the track you'd be in better shape if you gave yourself a bit more negative camber to get rid of the factory propensity to understeer.

In other words, just because you have to do something different to the other doesn't mean its better. It means you have to do something different; you're still making modifications.

How can FWD be equal to RWD in terms of performance driving? Easy, you spend fricken money and put work into your car the same way you spend money and put work into your RWD or AWD car. Like I said, stock for stock I could put money down that the ST would beat the FRS around a track. So if that's your 'focus' then you just lost to one.

Edit: Dunno why I'm bothering though, if there's one thing I've learned its that when people so far gone in their stubborn mindset see an arguement that differs from their own they don't waste a single second considering it.

Look there are 3 basic setups FWD RWD and AWD of the 3 (all things being equal) the least desirable for performance driving is FWD. Hello you cannot buy a less desirable setup, its last, the worst way to go, usually that means it sucks. In looser world maybe it’s the best thing ever. But in the real world it sucks. It’s OK I have a FWD DD.

I do have some experience with fast Focusssss I helped (not much but some) build the ZX351 [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzpc_Km41PE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzpc_Km41PE[/ame] I am filming part of this and at about 20seconds in you can see my M Roadster just behind the white car. Notice we had to convert it to RWD to make it fast ……..LOL…….. JK it was fairly fast in its various turbo incarnations but it did have some wicked TQ steer.

Look if you want to go along deluding yourself that they the same you go ahead but I think you know they’re not equal you just don’t want to admit you got all bent out of shape over nothing.

[mines13]

Originally Posted by Capt Canuck

Don't even bother. We could put down a pretty big eff-off list of great front-drivers, but some folks are just too damn 'ard and way too much of a wheelsman, to dare lower themselves to be caught dead in an FWD

Pretty much, it is worthy of note that the people who actually have track experience are the least negative about FWD vehicles. But understanding vehicle dynamics is a bit deeper then internet bench racing, video games and magazine numbers.

[SpeedR]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Yes, this point is correct, but has been overlooked in this thread for some reason.

All things kept equal, RWD > FWD. But application/execution plays a critical role. Hence, you can have FWD cars designed to out-handle RWD cars. Some good examples of FWD cars were mentioned already: Megane Trophy 265, Integra Type-R, etc.

Yes thank you for actually reading and understanding my point.