Road tuning with OFT

[BuBlake]

I'm trying to gain more insight as to how I can increase my car's horsepower and torque using only OFT datalogging... Any help is appreciated.

If my LTFT is within reason, KC is 0, and IAM is 1 across the board, how do I improve? Is there simply no way to tell without benchmarking the car at a track or taking it to a dyno?

[Kodename47]

E85 or petrol? What's your setup?

On petrol you'll hit knock before MBT so you could try increasing timing bit by bit. Cam timing can only really be done on a dyno unless you have a good road that is flat enough for virtual dyno, but it'd be a long process for little gain over the base OTS maps.

[BuBlake]

Originally Posted by Kodename47

E85 or petrol? What's your setup?

On petrol you'll hit knock before MBT so you could try increasing timing bit by bit. Cam timing can only really be done on a dyno unless you have a good road that is flat enough for virtual dyno, but it'd be a long process for little gain over the base OTS maps.

I'm running E85, but I will switch back to 93 if that is what I need to better understand knock correction and knock limits. Nearing empty on a tank of E85 right now.(as usual, lol)

I wasn't going to say anything, but I have already increased the timing above .5 load and 4,000 rpm by about one degree on the advance map B... Not sure if that was a smart move; I have yet to take a look at the logs. Map B is the one I want to adjust, correct? All I know is that the Map A in the E85 map is the same as the Map A in the 93 map.

MBT stands for "Mean Best Torque"(Thanks Kodename47)

My setup is:
Borla UEL header, catless FP, Invidia Q300 CB
Fa20club cold air-intake
Billet power blocks
Perrin lightweight crank pulley
OFT stg 2 UEL E85

[Kodename47]

Personally, adding timing at part throttle is pretty pointless, unless of course you think it's lacking. Find out the load regions you are under WOT from previous logs and use that. If you're N/A its likely to be loads of 1-1.1 and above depending on the RPM.

I can't remember which timing map is which on RR off hand. However, a lot of it depends on what your train of thought is. For me, I'd flatten the advance table and then add timing there once you have a base map that you know is good. Add timing on the advance table and if you see knock in certain areas then remove it. It's easy to see where you've made adjustments before, in my eyes easier than keeping a log.

MBT - mean best torque. You'll need a dyno to tune to that on E85 as it'll be before the knock threshold.

[steve99]

Originally Posted by BuBlake

I'm running E85, but I will switch back to 93 if that is what I need to better understand knock correction and knock limits. Nearing empty on a tank of E85 right now.(as usual, lol)

I wasn't going to say anything, but I have already increased the timing above .5 load and 4,000 rpm by about one degree on the advance map B... Not sure if that was a smart move; I have yet to take a look at the logs. Map B is the one I want to adjust, correct? All I know is that the Map A in the E85 map is the same as the Map A in the 93 map.

Does MBT stand for "minimum best timing"? I remember figuring out what it meant a while back in the forums here but I always forget.

My setup is:
Borla UEL header, catless FP, Invidia Q300 CB
Fa20club cold air-intake
Billet power blocks
Perrin lightweight crank pulley
OFT stg 2 UEL E85

+1 on kodename47 comments.

The oft maps appear to be quite good and close to the limits timing wise.

they do tend to run a bit rich most likely for safety.

as you have an aftermarket intake your best place to start would be going back to petrol and scaling your maf sensor to suit your intake and get your ltft down and your afr throught thge rpm range to match the OL FUEL table under load.

once you have that sotred and correct any knock, thn you coud transfer the new maf scale to the E85 tune and check afr and knock again. After that yur going to need a dyno and good knoledge to make any improvements and i dont think their is much to be gained maybe 5% at best and you would have to rearly know what you are doing.

[BuBlake]

I know the OTS timing works, or at least doesn't trigger the knock correction, so that means I should start adding timing across the board and then log to see if and where it needs to be retarded, correct? Can't I just reach the knock threshold, then back off a few degrees for a nearly sufficient MBT with E85?

I'm guessing that by "flattening it out", you mean to make Base table B look just like Base table A. I'm confused by this, as I thought that the ECU was simply fetching numbers from table B. Please explain? Maybe this is specific to RR in which case I am sorry and will not bug you with it. haha

[steve99]

Originally Posted by BuBlake

I know the OTS timing works, or at least doesn't trigger the knock correction, so that means I should start adding timing across the board and then log to see if and where it needs to be retarded, correct? Can't I just reach the knock threshold, then back off a few degrees for a nearly sufficient MBT with E85?

I'm guessing that by "flattening it out", you mean to make Base table B look just like Base table A. I'm confused by this, as I thought that the ECU was simply fetching numbers from table B. Please explain? Maybe this is specific to RR in which case I am sorry and will not bug you with it. haha

mate i am not a tuner and i dont claim to know anything more than the very basics.

Whats going on in an ecu even just for timing is very complex calculation many times per second all sorts of compensations for load intake air temp coolant temp rpm knock instantaneous knock stored values ect are applied.

Also afr intake valve timing exhaust valve timing injector firing time injector duration port/direct injection ratio and many other things effect the timing and afr that neds to be aplied to produce stable combustion an no knock for max power/torque.

suggest you read the basic stuff in links below and once you have that sorted then move on .

[Kodename47]

I picked up this video recently, shows the effect of changing AFR and ignition timing nicely:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzn3-ygH-v8"]Link[/ame]

Knock correction is only half the picture when it comes to ECU detected knock. Ignition correction - Fine is the one to watch when under high loads.

Your ignition timing is determined by base timing + advance timing if your IAM is 1. When I mean flattening out the advance table, make the advance table the same figure across the board, or at least make it nice easy steps. You have to re-adjust the base map to suit however. I created a tool a while back to this for you:
Download here


It sounds like you need to do some more reading before you go and do anything, you don't just blanket add timing over the entire map. Also just winding timing up on E85 won't help. It's possible you could go well past MBT and still add more timing, all you'll do is lose power.

[BuBlake]

Originally Posted by steve99

+1 on kodename47 comments.

The oft maps appear to be quite good and close to the limits timing wise.

they do tend to run a bit rich most likely for safety.

as you have an aftermarket intake your best place to start would be going back to petrol and scaling your maf sensor to suit your intake and get your ltft down and your afr throught thge rpm range to match the OL FUEL table under load.

once you have that sotred and correct any knock, thn you coud transfer the new maf scale to the E85 tune and check afr and knock again. After that yur going to need a dyno and good knoledge to make any improvements and i dont think their is much to be gained maybe 5% at best and you would have to rearly know what you are doing.

MAF sensor scaling is what confuses me most particularly because you say that I cannot adjust it with the E85 tune, yet I can completely overwrite it with an adjusted scale that suits my intake from a 93 tune. Wouldn't plugging in the adjusted MAF scale from a petrol tune do exactly the same thing as adjusting my MAF scale with the E85 tune?

Regardless, my LTFT sits between -3 and 0 most of the time. Sometimes it shoots up to 8% when idling for short periods but I assume idling does not effect performance. har de har

[phrosty]

Originally Posted by BuBlake

MAF sensor scaling is what confuses me most particularly because you say that I cannot adjust it with the E85 tune, yet I can completely overwrite it with an adjusted scale that suits my intake from a 93 tune. Wouldn't plugging in the adjusted MAF scale from a petrol tune do exactly the same thing as adjusting my MAF scale with the E85 tune?

The OFT E85 tune uses fuel trims as a way to adjust for different E%, so it's not a great idea to use it to tune your MAF values. You should be okay with tuning on 93 and then transferring your new MAF values over to your E85 rom once done.

[BuBlake]

Originally Posted by phrosty

The OFT E85 tune uses fuel trims as a way to adjust for different E%, so it's not a great idea to use it to tune your MAF values. You should be okay with tuning on 93 and then transferring your new MAF values over to your E85 rom once done.

Makes sense now, thanks! So it's not the MAF scale itself, it's the LTFT and STFT output from the ECU that wouldn't provide usable data for adjusting MAF. Luckily I have logs from when I was using 93 already!

[BuBlake]

Originally Posted by Kodename47

'Your ignition timing is determined by base timing + advance timing if your IAM is 1. When I mean flattening out the advance table, make the advance table the same figure across the board, or at least make it nice easy steps. You have to re-adjust the base map to suit however. I created a tool a while back to this for you:'
Download here

I'm confused by what the base timing and advance timing maps are actually called in RR. There are two base timing maps that are only a few degrees apart on the E85 tune, and identical in the 93 tune. I need to know what the base map and advance map are actually called in RR, if someone who uses RR could tell me... Thank you

[Kodename47]

The 2 maps you're on about are AVCS active, usually with the higher values, and AVCS off. The advance map will likely be called ignition advance or maybe advance A. There should only be 3 ignition timing maps that look correct.

[steve99]

Originally Posted by BuBlake

I'm confused by what the base timing and advance timing maps are actually called in RR. There are two base timing maps that are only a few degrees apart on the E85 tune, and identical in the 93 tune. I need to know what the base map and advance map are actually called in RR, if someone who uses RR could tell me... Thank you

Read the knock correctin post in link below it will explain most of what your asking @Kodename47 has also roduced a very good tool for collecting knock data its linked in that post, their is also another link to maf scaling and vgi maf scaling utlity

one thing they did not mention in the video above is that running richer generally buys you knock resistance so you can run more advance and make more power, there are many interactions when tuning its not simply add more timing make more power everything it a tradeoff and has other effects some undesirable.