How different is the brz from the frs?

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by abraxis

The comment was from some review saying specifically the BRZ headlights were dimmer than the FRS.

I'm calling bullshit. If that's what someone wrote in a review, they were either blind or not comparing them properly.

Originally Posted by abraxis

Plus you can negotiate on a Scion, that's just myth.

Pure Price is not a myth. It exists. Scion dealers do have the ability to negotiate under certain circumstances, but they are far less likely to do so because they can be penalized by Toyota corporate for violating the policy. Whatever price they advertise is the price they're supposed to stick to. It's a marketing gimmick they sell as being "easier" than negotiating, but in reality if you look at sites like Edmunds to see what people are actually paying, the out-the-door prices are typically higher than the "higher priced" Subarus.

Where the Scion dealers are willing to negotiate is on trade ins. If they really want to get you in the car but can't budge on the price, they'll try giving you more on your trade to even it out. But that's not a given, and it doesn't help at all if you're not trading anything.

They're also willing to negotiate on finance terms, but their offer is usually not going to be as good as what you can get on your own from a credit union. And it doesn't help you if you're paying cash.

Of course the Subaru dealers can also negotiate on trade-in and financing, so the Scion dealers are still at a disadvantage. Generally speaking, you're more likely to get a better deal at the Subaru dealer.

Originally Posted by abraxis

Do not like the BRZ vents either which have even more fake mesh and sometimes a big fat chrome strip which seems a bit gaudy for the car I think. It's just over the top for me.

I actually ordered mine with the chrome accent. Whether it looks right depends on the color. On some of the darker colors it looks a little gaudy, but I think it works well with the red. The red is so flashy already that the little chrome accent blends in nicely.

I'm not a huge fan of the BRZ vents, but I think they actually look better than the FR-S covers. The FR-S vent covers just look unfinished to me, like the vents were an option that was supposed to be there but were blocked off because it was a cheaper model. Of course that's not really the case, but it looks like it. I may end up modding mine with wire mesh to get rid of the fake mesh in the insert.

Originally Posted by abraxis

TI thought I read from a BRZ owner that Subaru didn't include scheduled maintenance.

You thought wrong. Subaru does include it, and it's nationwide. I actually got my first "free" oil change 300 miles away from my regular dealer while on a trip.

As for the quality of the dealerships, I don't think you can make any generalizations about whether Subaru or Scion dealers better. As I said above, at the time I bought mine, the Subaru dealers in my area were willing to deal, where the Scion dealers could not because they were hamstrung by Pure Price. My dealer's service department has been hit and miss, but I can't complain about the purchase process. There have been some pretty scary stories posted here about both brands. OP will need to do his homework and shop around.

Originally Posted by Norton 850

The suspension spring rates are different.

It might be helpful to explain what that means. The Scion is set up with a slightly stiffer suspension. At first that might sound better, but it depends on what kind of driving experience you want. The Subaru's slightly softer suspension means that it wants to hug the curves a little better. The Scion's stiffer springs makes it want to cut the back end loose a little quicker and slide a little easier.

I personally prefer the Subaru (which is one of the big reasons I bought it) because I'm accustomed to sports cars that hug the curves and do not want to slide. When it does cut loose, it's very predictable and manageable. But I rarely let the tail kick out because when I was brought up, sliding a car around a curve on pavement was considered "doing it wrong." If you wanted to drive like that, you took a dune buggy out on the dirt.

But I can see the appeal of drifting. If you want a tail-happy car that is easier to drift, you would want the Scion or would want to mod the suspension if you bought the Subaru. The cars are not drastically different. It's just a subtle change for the different target markets for Scion and Subaru.

[swill38]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSmx-vqK1TM"]All the Differences Between the BRZ and FR-S - YouTube[/ame]

this video is a pretty good summary of the differences between the 2 cars

[ntron1]

Originally Posted by sofargone561

I am going to be purchasing an frs/brz in the near future. I am probably going to go with and frs to save some cash. The only reason I am interested in the brz is becuase of the brz limited hvac control unit. I think the frs and base brz units are cheap looking but i really like the look of the brz's unit.

I know there are a few cosmetic things that are different. My real question I guess would be am i going to be limited more with the brz then the frs? I know most of the car is the same but it seems most of the aftermarket support right now is geared towards the frs more then the brz.

Also another question does the rocket bunny v2 kit fit on a brz?

Interesting.....The one thing that kept me from the BRZ Limited was the refusal of the dealer to swap out the Automatic HVAC controls for the manual ones. Not a fan of the Automatic controls however, since you mentioned rocket bunny in your post you are probably more of an appearance individual that a performance one.

[thismock]

I see it mentioned quite a bit that Scions have to sell at MSRP. This is not the Scion policy so I find it misleading when I read posts that suggest it.

Scion's pure pricing policy means a dealer can only sell a car at its advertised price, which must be the same on the sticker and on any marketing materials including the website. Scion lets their dealers price cars at whatever price the dealer wants; the pure pricing policy gets violated when a dealer sells a car for less than it was advertised by the dealer.

Dealers often set their Scion prices at MSRP, but the dealer is not required to sell at MSRP. For example, the Scion dealer in Sunnyvale, CA advertises and sells all of their FR-S' for $1035 off MSRP. It doesn't violate the policy for them to do this as long as they sell those cars for $1035 off MSRP. If that dealer were to advertise $1035 off and then sell one to me for $1500 off, that would violate the policy and would be grounds for them to lose their Scion franchise.

What this meant to me when I was shopping is that all Scion pricing can be researched on the internet. You can find brand new Scion models below MSRP (like the ones I mentioned above) if you're willing to consider dealerships that may be a little further away from your home. You simply have to be prepared that when you go to the dealership, the only room for negotiation will be on the value of your trade-in.

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by thismock

I see it mentioned quite a bit that Scions have to sell at MSRP. This is not the Scion policy so I find it misleading when I read posts that suggest it.

Scion's pure pricing policy means a dealer can only sell a car at its advertised price, which must be the same on the sticker and on any marketing materials including the website. Scion lets their dealers price cars at whatever price the dealer wants; the pure pricing policy gets violated when a dealer sells a car for less than it was advertised by the dealer.

Dealers often set their Scion prices at MSRP, but the dealer is not required to sell at MSRP. For example, the Scion dealer in Sunnyvale, CA advertises and sells all of their FR-S' for $1035 off MSRP. It doesn't violate the policy for them to do this as long as they sell those cars for $1035 off MSRP. If that dealer were to advertise $1035 off and then sell one to me for $1500 off, that would violate the policy and would be grounds for them to lose their Scion franchise.

What this meant to me when I was shopping is that all Scion pricing can be researched on the internet. You can find brand new Scion models below MSRP (like the ones I mentioned above) if you're willing to consider dealerships that may be a little further away from your home. You simply have to be prepared that when you go to the dealership, the only room for negotiation will be on the value of your trade-in.

Yup! If you check the true car price trends you would see the purchase price fluctuations for the FRS' so called Pure Pricing. If PP was the MSRP only rule some people make it out to be, the graph would be flat. It isn't.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by thismock

I see it mentioned quite a bit that Scions have to sell at MSRP. This is not the Scion policy so I find it misleading when I read posts that suggest it.

Since nobody said that in this thread, the rest of what you wrote is pretty much irrelevant.

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by Poodles

BRZ = MSRP which is negotable
FR-S = Non-negotable pricing

BRZ can be had cheaper because of this.

Originally Posted by extrashaky

Since nobody said that in this thread, the rest of what you wrote is pretty much irrelevant.

It was intimated in the post above yours. You very well know most people perceive Pure Price means you will go to the dealer and pay MSRP.

Regardless, I've said it before and will say it again. You can still bypass Pure Pricing by using a bank to get a better price working with the fleet manager at Toyota. Doing that or finding a dealer that will advertise and sell below other dealer MSRPs are two options.

[gramicci101]

According to a recent study regarding insurance claims, the BRZ apparently has better drivers.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by abraxis

It was intimated in the post above yours.

Unless you think the BRZ is sold by Scion, then no, it wasn't.

Originally Posted by abraxis

You very well know most people perceive Pure Price means you will go to the dealer and pay MSRP.

What I know is that whenever this subject comes up, an apologist for Scion's borderline-ethical marketing gimmick will post this same straw man and pretend it makes any difference at all. It doesn't.

MSRP has a place in the discussion because it is higher for the BRZ, leading people (including the OP) to believe that the BRZ is more expensive. But the out-the-door price of the BRZ is usually lower than the FR-S because BRZ salesmen have the ability to negotiate price. It doesn't really matter if a Scion dealer advertises a price of $1000 below MSRP when the BRZ dealer can negotiate another $500 below that. The Scion dealer is stuck with whatever you see online or on the sticker, whereas the BRZ dealer is not stuck with either.

One of the reasons for the difference in average prices is that Pure Price makes price collusion among competing Toyota dealers easier. The Scion dealers are all advertising their prices, so they know what the other guys are charging and can set their own prices accordingly. It's a borderline anti-competitive policy. I suspect that if someone were to challenge it, the FTC would bring down the hammer.

[johnnyfast11]

cannot be serious. search and you would get all the answers pretty much.

[Poodles]

Originally Posted by ntron1

Interesting.....The one thing that kept me from the BRZ Limited was the refusal of the dealer to swap out the Automatic HVAC controls for the manual ones. Not a fan of the Automatic controls however, since you mentioned rocket bunny in your post you are probably more of an appearance individual that a performance one.

You do know they declined because it can't be done (easily), right? The entire system is different. Look at the various threads on people wanting to add the climate control to non-climate control cars.


Considering the entire system can basically be bypassed (put it on the highest or lowest temp and take control of the fan speed and vent settings) it sounds like a pretty petty reason to not get the car...

[jbsali]

Originally Posted by sofargone561

I am going to be purchasing an frs/brz in the near future. I am probably going to go with and frs to save some cash. The only reason I am interested in the brz is becuase of the brz limited hvac control unit. I think the frs and base brz units are cheap looking but i really like the look of the brz's unit.

I know there are a few cosmetic things that are different. My real question I guess would be am i going to be limited more with the brz then the frs? I know most of the car is the same but it seems most of the aftermarket support right now is geared towards the frs more then the brz.

Also another question does the rocket bunny v2 kit fit on a brz?

I would highly recommend getting insurance quotes on both models. i found out that the FRS and BRZ are almost a $500 difference annually in BC, Canada. The FRS is more common here, hence more accidents; higher insurance cost. I was able to slip into a BRZ premium for under the insurance cost of a base model FRS (saved around $450 annually).

Granted insurance companies have different rates, it's still worth checking out. BC insurance is ran by the government so we only deal with one insurance company where im from.


I originally wanted to get the FRS because of the history of toyota and the cars the FRS is based on. i ended up getting more car at the same price as a monogram frs and cheaper on insurance. it was a no-brainer for me to get the BRZ. plus, having a World Rally Blue BRZ sure does turn heads.

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

Unless you think the BRZ is sold by Scion, then no, it wasn't.



What I know is that whenever this subject comes up, an apologist for Scion's borderline-ethical marketing gimmick will post this same straw man and pretend it makes any difference at all. It doesn't.

MSRP has a place in the discussion because it is higher for the BRZ, leading people (including the OP) to believe that the BRZ is more expensive. But the out-the-door price of the BRZ is usually lower than the FR-S because BRZ salesmen have the ability to negotiate price. It doesn't really matter if a Scion dealer advertises a price of $1000 below MSRP when the BRZ dealer can negotiate another $500 below that. The Scion dealer is stuck with whatever you see online or on the sticker, whereas the BRZ dealer is not stuck with either.

One of the reasons for the difference in average prices is that Pure Price makes price collusion among competing Toyota dealers easier. The Scion dealers are all advertising their prices, so they know what the other guys are charging and can set their own prices accordingly. It's a borderline anti-competitive policy. I suspect that if someone were to challenge it, the FTC would bring down the hammer.

Your first statement is just silly trying to take literalism to the extreme and out of context to support a bad argument. If you thought we were comparing MSRP BRZ prices with below MSRP FRS prices, you wouldn't be dumping all over Pure Price, but nevermind.

Well I hope you aren't suggesting I'm a Scion apologist for Pure Price? If I was, I would have paid pure price which I didn't. I also wouldn't have talked about all the ways around it. People have gotten $1500 and more off than you suggested so that's moot for that and other reasons.

What I can say I know also, is everytime the subject comes up a Subaru apologist for the ugly moustache comes on and says just buy a Subaru because you can 'negotiate'. How's that sound from the other side of the argument? Sounds just as bad to me. For one, I have never heard anyone take the side of a Pure Price apologist except maybe a 75 year old retiree looking for an xA or xB who doesn't have the time or energy to negotiate. So your idea of an PP apologist to me is a unicorn. Pretty much everyone hates it. I'm sure a lot of people bought BRZs because of it.

Your last point also works the other way. If PP is anti competitive, then the cars will sit on the lot and dealers will be forced to drop prices regardless due to inventory issues. All that does is hurts Scions sales figures which is obviously has. Dealers are still subject to other market pressure and sales goals that determine sticker price. All of which have nothing to do with Pure Price anyway.

Ultimately, the point is you can get the car you want by learning how to be a good shopper and not having other people tell you what to buy. For someone so into competition and choices, I'd think you'd support that idea instead of pretending you only have one competitive choice. A BRZ.

[ntron1]

Originally Posted by Poodles

You do know they declined because it can't be done (easily), right? The entire system is different. Look at the various threads on people wanting to add the climate control to non-climate control cars.


Considering the entire system can basically be bypassed (put it on the highest or lowest temp and take control of the fan speed and vent settings) it sounds like a pretty petty reason to not get the car...

I understand why you would say that but I have significant experience with the long term reliability of the control module this HVAC system uses and I am not impressed even though I would never have to pay to have it fixed.

Regarding swapping the systems, you are correct about putting the automatic one in place of the manual but going the other way is simple.