2015 Ford Mustang / Shelby GT350 Official - 5.2L FPC with 500+hp/400+ lb-ft

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

The majority of younger drivers can't even consider buying a brand new car, not in this economy.

The majority of younger drivers do not give a rats ass about light weight or driving performance. The majority of them are more concerned with connectivity, sounds system, phone and iPad integration, gas mileage. low cost, stylishness (like fashion) etc.

Young car enthusiast are a dying breed and a true niche market. Automakers will continue to make cars for the broader audience and those who can afford and want performance are older guys (and ladies) who have mostly raised there families and have the extra income to treat themselves to one of the cars they grew up idolizing. Those are cars like the Camaro, Mustang, Challenger, Vette, 370Z, M3, GT-R etc. All those cars a porkers because those type of buyers want more than just performance. They want features and ride comfort too. All that stuff adds weight but as long as you have a big strong motor, electronics and sophisticated suspension it won't matter. The cars will still perform better than any of the cars they dreamed about growing up.

Yeah, Ford and all the other big car companies know exactly what the car buying public wants. It may not be the car that you or I want but we should just be happy that there are still a couple companies making cars for our niche. We have the FR-S/BRZ and soon there will be a new MX-5. Don't expect many other car makers to cater to us or even try to pare down the weights of their sporty cars when there is no monetary reason to do so.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by Rampage

The majority of younger drivers do not give a rats ass about light weight or driving performance. The majority of them are more concerned with connectivity, sounds system, phone and iPad integration, gas mileage. low cost, stylishness (like fashion) etc.

Young car enthusiast are a dying breed and a true niche market. Automakers will continue to make cars for the broader audience and those who can afford and want performance are older guys (and ladies) who have mostly raised there families and have the extra income to treat themselves to one of the cars they grew up idolizing. Those are cars like the Camaro, Mustang, Challenger, Vette, 370Z, M3, GT-R etc. All those cars a porkers because those type of buyers want more than just performance. They want features and ride comfort too. All that stuff adds weight but as long as you have a big strong motor, electronics and sophisticated suspension it won't matter. The cars will still perform better than any of the cars they dreamed about growing up.

Yeah, Ford and all the other big car companies know exactly what the car buying public wants. It may not be the car that you or I want but we should just be happy that there are still a couple companies making cars for our niche. We have the FR-S/BRZ and soon there will be a new MX-5. Don't expect many other car makers to cater to us or even try to pare down the weights of their sporty cars when there is no monetary reason to do so.

I disagree, I think with the help of the internet, there are now more young car enthusiasts than ever before. Most of them are still driving 15 year old cars because that's what their budget will allow. Modifying cars is an expensive hobby. When a younger person can actually afford to buy a new car they usually have to compromise for something FWD because of cost or practicallity. There is a reason why the Fiat Abarth, ST Twins, and Gti exist.

I don't expect many other companies to make a lightweight, cheap, rwd car. That is what made me decide to pull the trigger on the FRS.

[Rampage]

I do not totally disagree with your observation about the internet but I do think that what you are seeing is a bit of an illusion. What you are seeing as a car enthusiast who regularly visits car forums are a bunch of other people like you that are interested in cars and performance. In reality, the people that come to car forums and talk are a very very small percentage of the population in any age bracket. Most people are not car enthusiast. Most view cars as transportation or fashion accessories. I believe this to be especially true with young drivers. Many cannot tell the difference between FWD, RWD or AWD and most do not care what the difference is.

Even those that I would call car enthusiast do not all share the passion for light weight good handling vehicles. More are concerned with the stop light gran prix and want more power so they can beat the guy (or soccer mom) in the lane next to them.

Face it, those that want cars like the FR-S, MX-5 or my MR-S make up a tiny portion of the car buying public. Ford will probably sell twice as many of the "fat" Mustangs this coming year as the FR-S has sold in the entire time it has been on sale. Why would they want to change?

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by Rampage

Even those that I would call car enthusiast do not all share the passion for light weight good handling vehicles. More are concerned with the stop light gran prix and want more power so they can beat the guy (or soccer mom) in the lane next to them.

Horsepower has always been king in America, nothing will change that. Car enthusiasts who crave good handling and light weight have always been the minority. The 60s,70s,80s were all filled with cars that put power above everything else.

Originally Posted by Rampage

Face it, those that want cars like the FR-S, MX-5 or my MR-S make up a tiny portion of the car buying public. Ford will probably sell twice as many of the "fat" Mustangs this coming year as the FR-S has sold in the entire time it has been on sale. Why would they want to change?

Maybe you misunderstood my statements,

That is what makes the 86 a special car. Lightweight fixed-top coupes are usually 40k+ if you can even find them.

I should have included RWD. Anything that is cheap, rwd, and light will sell like hotcakes.

I never meant that a cheap, light, rwd car would be the next Mustang. The Mustang is made for a wide range of drivers, most of whom are not car enthusiasts. However, I think the market is itching for more cheap rwd, light cars. The 86 has sold more cars in 3 years than the s2000 did in its entire production run. If someone could make a RWD coupe that's lightweight for $22k I think it would take a big bite from the other enthusiast's cars on the market today. That is why Chevy, Nissan, and Hyundai keep teasing us with their 86-like concepts. The problem is that none of them can do it for that cheap. Toyota and Mazda are the only ones able to get it right.

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

I never meant that a cheap, light, rwd car would be the next Mustang. The Mustang is made for a wide range of drivers, most of whom are not car enthusiasts. However, I think the market is itching for more cheap rwd, light cars. The 86 has sold more cars in 3 years than the s2000 did in its entire production run. If someone could make a RWD coupe that's lightweight for $22k I think it would take a big bite from the other enthusiast's cars on the market today. That is why Chevy, Nissan, and Hyundai keep teasing us with their 86-like concepts. The problem is that none of them can do it for that cheap. Toyota and Mazda are the only ones able to get it right.

The s2000 was ridiculously expensive for its time and too small inside for many bigger people. The MX-5 was much cheaper and about the same size inside so it survived. Even the s2000's performance advantage couldn't save it.

A small portion of the market is itching for a lightweight RWD car. Even Toyota and Mazda cannot build them fo sell for $22K. When the MX-5 comes out, it will steal sales from the twins and so will any other similar car that anyone else might produce. There is a finite market for performance oriented lightweight sporty cars with limited appeal to those that buy Mustang type cars. Production of more lightweight, affordable sporty RWD cars will simply dilute the demand and bring about the demise of models sooner. At one time, we had several cars that fit that description. The MX-5, MR-S, s2000, 240SX, etc all were being sold at the same time. There was not enough demand to support the breed and only the MX-5 survived.

Now, we have the FR-S/BRZ and the MX-5. There is enough difference between the two that they may be able to co-exist. I would hate to see the introduction of a bunch of new models in this segment cause history to repeat itself so soon. Chevy, Ford, Kia/Hyundai and Nissan should just stick with their overweight stuff.

That is my take on it anyway.

[fatoni]

I think the bottom line is that there is a sales ceiling for the truly sporty cars. Those models tend to come and go. When they are released on the market, everyone who wants one and can afford one buys one. A few years later there is nobody to sell those cars to.

[thill]

The fact is the average age of a new car buyer is getting older and older as the cost of new cars continues to increase and college educations in our country and healthcare costs skyrocket. The average price of a new car is $32k now and very few average income families can afford it. So yes there is a finite pool of people in the market to buy a sportscar. The Mustang and Camaro are not immune to the market and remember Chevy killed off the Camaro once before.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by thill

The fact is the average age of a new car buyer is getting older and older as the cost of new cars continues to increase and college educations in our country and healthcare costs skyrocket. The average price of a new car is $32k now and very few average income families can afford it. .

Well, in my experience this has always been the case (the average income family could not afford the average new car) regardless of when you look at it in history. But, in the end you are correct the "average" price of a car has risen over time faster than the "average" salary. I would argue though that this is partially due to the willingness of people to finance cars over the years, resulting in the increase of higher end cars sold, amongst other contributing factors.

The ratio was pretty steady until the 1980's but then skyrocketed. Seems to me this correlates to when the larger vehicle market (SUVs, "fancy" nonwork trucks, etc) took off and folks were able to lease and finance cars for longer terms. You could argue that it is a chicken/egg thing, but the bottom line is if someone wasn't buying $50,000 pickup trucks and $40,000 cargo conversion vans, the manufacturers would not be building them.

Here's a little comparison of average income to average car price over the years. Source:

[thill]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Well, in my experience this has always been the case (the average income family could not afford the average new car) regardless of when you look at it in history. But, in the end you are correct the "average" price of a car has risen over time faster than the "average" salary. I would argue though that this is partially due to the willingness of people to finance cars over the years, resulting in the increase of higher end cars sold, amongst other contributing factors.

The ratio was pretty steady until the 1980's but then skyrocketed. Seems to me this correlates to when the larger vehicle market (SUVs, "fancy" nonwork trucks, etc) took off and folks were able to lease and finance cars for longer terms. You could argue that it is a chicken/egg thing, but the bottom line is if someone wasn't buying $50,000 pickup trucks and $40,000 cargo conversion vans, the manufacturers would not be building them.

Here's a little comparison of average income to average car price over the years. Source:

Good info, and there have been a number of articles out in recent years where we see the shift in demographics even more to baby boomers:



That is an old chart. In 2013 this was announced:

The 55-to-64-year-old age group, the oldest of the boomers, has become the cohort most likely to buy a new car, according to a new study by the University of Michigan’s Transportation Research Institute. Graying boomers replaced the 35-to-44 year old age group, who were most likely to buy four years ago.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by fatoni

I think the bottom line is that there is a sales ceiling for the truly sporty cars. Those models tend to come and go. When they are released on the market, everyone who wants one and can afford one buys one. A few years later there is nobody to sell those cars to.

And it's a bit of a problem because if you try to restrict the supply and have a more expensive sporty car that less people can buy so you have more people to sell to in the future, then you have to add in luxury features that make the car less sporty.

I guess Porsche figured this out early and made their cars into rolling couches with sportier models as an option while Lotus is struggling to sell a few hundred cars a year.

[rice_classic]

All of our core expenditures (housing/education/health/childcare) over the last 60 years have increased exponentially while wages have remained flat even as productivity has increased several fold. If wages increased to match productivity over that time period the economic story of today would be vastly different for most folks.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

All of our core expenditures (housing/education/health/childcare) over the last 60 years have increased exponentially while wages have remained flat even as productivity has increased several fold. If wages increased to match productivity over that time period the economic story of today would be vastly different for most folks.

That is unlikely. Things are going to get a lot worse before they get better.

[campy]

A Scion FRS weighs 2700 lbs and a '15 Mustang weighs 3700 lbs. Where is this extra 1000 lbs coming from? Is this thing built on a F450 chassis or something?

[53Driver]

Originally Posted by campy

A Scion FRS weighs 2700 lbs and a '15 Mustang weighs 3700 lbs. Where is this extra 1000 lbs coming from? Is this thing built on a F450 chassis or something?

Well, the Coyote engine alone is going to weigh a couple hundred pounds more than the FA20 (assuming a V-8 equipped Mustang). Then there's the size difference between the cars. The Mustang is larger so you're going to have more weight there. Since the Mustang is marketed to a larger crowd, figure more weight from sound deadening and extra features. The sheet metal might be thicker causing more weight, after all we've seen all the complaints about the FR-S/BRZ denting easily.