Destiny Raid Groups/ General Discussion

[ThisGuy919]

Originally Posted by tahdizzle

Look, there are a lot of PvP elitests in this game (FPS players who are worried about KD ratios. So they join fights like capture and camp. If you notice, the majority of players that brag about KD ratios play capture. But have like 30 captures in the amount of games played.)

Its just a game, and no one person is better than any other person in PvP. This is where PvP elitests would like to disagree. BUT there is a reason why 90% of people on the top of the PvP leader boards are hunters and use Shotguns/fusion rifles. This game is not balanced for PvP.

The "Level advantages" are still there. What they did do was to make armor and weapons have the same BASE damage. All attachments and damage bonuses from weapons are still active.

So a lvl 6 rifle with no upgrades does, in fact, do the same amount of damage that a lvl 20 exotic does with no upgrades. BUT a lvl 20 exotic rifle that is fully upgraded, does MUCH more damage than a lvl 6 uncommon rifle fully upgraded.

Man. Can't wait for the iron banner.

The damage stays the same no matter how you upgrade it. But things like explosive rounds help w aoe. Otherwise pulse rifle will ALL ways be two burst headshot no matter how you upgrade it (same concept w all guns)

[MokSpeed]

Originally Posted by tahdizzle

Look, there are a lot of PvP elitests in this game (FPS players who are worried about KD ratios. So they join fights like capture and camp. If you notice, the majority of players that brag about KD ratios play capture. But have like 30 captures in the amount of games played.)

Its just a game, and no one person is better than any other person in PvP. This is where PvP elitests would like to disagree. BUT there is a reason why 90% of people on the top of the PvP leader boards are hunters and use Shotguns/fusion rifles. This game is not balanced for PvP.

The "Level advantages" are still there. What they did do was to make armor and weapons have the same BASE damage. All attachments and damage bonuses from weapons are still active.

So a lvl 6 rifle with no upgrades does, in fact, do the same amount of damage that a lvl 20 exotic does with no upgrades. BUT a lvl 20 exotic rifle that is fully upgraded, does MUCH more damage than a lvl 6 uncommon rifle fully upgraded.

Man. Can't wait for the iron banner.

Originally Posted by ThisGuy919

The damage stays the same no matter how you upgrade it. But things like explosive rounds help w aoe. Otherwise pulse rifle will ALL ways be two burst headshot no matter how you upgrade it (same concept w all guns)

Skill can always overcome gear, especially since all stats the same for weapons in PvP. Yes some guns have certain abilities and upgrades that will make it much better than most, but this is where strategy comes into play. If you realize the other team is stacked full of a bunch of guys who have exploding round hand cannons, assess the situation and form a game plan just as you would in PvE. A well coordinated fireteam composed of 6 friends can easily beat a team of randoms stacked with rare gear.

Just because people enjoy competition and care about their KD does not make them "elitist". Granted there actually are players as you've described. I understand how the fun can be sucked out of the game if you constantly run into them in matchmaking. However, I wouldn't say it's fair to generalize all competitive PvP players like this. I also don't understand your argument when you say no one person is better than another. I would much rather have a person who only gets 5 kills but no deaths on my team as opposed to somebody who gets 15 kills but dies 25 times.

[n2oinferno]

Originally Posted by MokSpeed

I would much rather have a person who only gets 5 kills but no deaths on my team as opposed to somebody who gets 15 kills but dies 25 times.

I'm on ur team, loosin u points.

Really though, sucks for the people on my team. I'm not going to get better without playing a whole bunch, but that means I'm just going to be not so great for a while.

And to that I say:

[53Driver]

So what's the point of PvP in this game other than to have a change of scenery? I'm asking this in all seriousness. I really don't know. I get the feeling that there are quite a few who spend a majority of their time in their because the few times I've tried my hand at it I seem like I get smoked constantly, even when I know I'm hitting them in return. The tactics in PvE definitely does not carry over to PvP and maybe my weapon choices have been poor. I also haven't bought or earned any Crucible designated stuff so I'm sure that doesn't help. Crucible weapons/armor can't be carried over to PvE missions correct?

[53Driver]

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

I'm on ur team, loosin u points.

Really though, sucks for the people on my team. I'm not going to get better without playing a whole bunch, but that means I'm just going to be not so great for a while.

And to that I say:

Haha that's pretty much me. I suck at the PvP thing. Probably average about 3-5 kills per match, but I've learned to be elusive so I don't killed very often.

[tahdizzle]

Originally Posted by MokSpeed

Skill can always overcome gear, especially since all stats the same for weapons in PvP. Yes some guns have certain abilities and upgrades that will make it much better than most, but this is where strategy comes into play. If you realize the other team is stacked full of a bunch of guys who have exploding round hand cannons, assess the situation and form a game plan just as you would in PvE. A well coordinated fireteam composed of 6 friends can easily beat a team of randoms stacked with rare gear.

Just because people enjoy competition and care about their KD does not make them "elitist". Granted there actually are players as you've described. I understand how the fun can be sucked out of the game if you constantly run into them in matchmaking. However, I wouldn't say it's fair to generalize all competitive PvP players like this. I also don't understand your argument when you say no one person is better than another. I would much rather have a person who only gets 5 kills but no deaths on my team as opposed to somebody who gets 15 kills but dies 25 times.

KD is only relative in games like Clash, or Rumble. Like I mentioned, there are people who have great KD ratios, but do not contribute in games like Capture. Where yes, killing the opposite team yields points that is modified by the number of zones you have captured, but someone who doesn't capture a zone and just sits in a corner with a shotgun and waiting for people to come around a corner or down range with a sniper rifle (sniper rifle down range defending a zone is a different matter) is not contributing to the capture game.

And it is elitest to judge a person's skill on KD ratio. In my example, a player has a 1.5 KD ratio.

90% of games played and kills earned are in Capture, BUT that person only has 30 zone captures. Is this person a good player? Like I said, no one person is better than the other in PvP. Because this game has a horrible PvP system that is not balanced. That does not mean that it is not fun, and that I do not enjoy the pvp in the game.

My post was intended to not discourage people from participating in PvP because they feel they are not good at it. Or some guy with E-peen envy thinks he is better because he has a better KD ratio.

KD ratios are a horrible judge of skill. For this one Major reason: KD ratios are not accurate.

I can get a fireteam and join rumble and boost my KD ratio all day long. All I need to do is make a character that is not my main and let my buddies kill me all day (and vice versa).

[MokSpeed]

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

I'm on ur team, loosin u points.

Really though, sucks for the people on my team. I'm not going to get better without playing a whole bunch, but that means I'm just going to be not so great for a while.

It won't affect me. I have a fire team of 6 I play with in PvP specifically to avoid this. If anything you could see it as a raid against an opposing team.

Originally Posted by 53Driver

So what's the point of PvP in this game other than to have a change of scenery? I'm asking this in all seriousness. I really don't know. I get the feeling that there are quite a few who spend a majority of their time in their because the few times I've tried my hand at it I seem like I get smoked constantly, even when I know I'm hitting them in return. The tactics in PvE definitely does not carry over to PvP and maybe my weapon choices have been poor. I also haven't bought or earned any Crucible designated stuff so I'm sure that doesn't help. Crucible weapons/armor can't be carried over to PvE missions correct?

That is incorrect. Crucible gear is not specific to PvP. The main point of PvP is Bungie staying true to its roots (Halo) as many of those who play this game are playing this game because it's a shooter. Also, Crucible marks are an alternative to Vanguard marks. Just as you play missions and accept bounties for the vanguard to unlock legendary gear, I am doing the same in the Crucible. I like their direction with this because you give the gamer a choice in how they wish to level and grind whether it be PvE or PvP. My crucible level is almost 3 and I am barely level 1 in the vanguard so I see no need in playing missions to earn gear. Basically I did not rely on farming engrams as most who play PvE do. Rather I just took matters into my own hands and kept winning games in PvP so I can just buy my gear. It takes the RNGesus out of the equation.

[tahdizzle]

A player with 5 kills and 0 deaths has only generated 500 points for your team.

The player with 15 kills and 25 deaths has generated 1500 points for your team and 2500 points for the other team. BUT what has the player contributed to your team? How many zone neutralizations and captures (25 pts for neutral, 75 points for captures), and then the modifiers that go with having zone control that gives everyone a boost. So while he may have generated 2500 points for the other team, with his captures and the modifiers he has generated for the entire team, he has potentially generated MUCH more than 2500 points (1500 + capture points + all the modifiers generated by other team member kills)

Who has contributed more?

Like I said in clash, rumble and skirmish KD ratio is a good measure of skill. BUT in control (what the majority of people play) and salvage, KD ratio is a poor measure of activity and total value a player has contributed to the team.

Only elitests worry about KD ratio.

[MokSpeed]

Originally Posted by tahdizzle

KD is only relative in games like Clash, or Rumble. Like I mentioned, there are people who have great KD ratios, but do not contribute in games like Capture. Where yes, killing the opposite team yields points that is modified by the number of zones you have captured, but someone who doesn't capture a zone and just sits in a corner with a shotgun and waiting for people to come around a corner or down range with a sniper rifle (sniper rifle down range defending a zone is a different matter) is not contributing to the capture game.

And it is elitest to judge a person's skill on KD ratio. In my example, a player has a 1.5 KD ratio.

90% of games played and kills earned are in Capture, BUT that person only has 30 zone captures. Is this person a good player? Like I said, no one person is better than the other in PvP. Because this game has a horrible PvP system that is not balanced. That does not mean that it is not fun, and that I do not enjoy the pvp in the game.

My post was intended to not discourage people from participating in PvP because they feel they are not good at it. Or some guy with E-peen envy thinks he is better because he has a better KD ratio.

KD ratios are a horrible judge of skill. For this one Major reason: KD ratios are not accurate.

I can get a fireteam and join rumble and boost my KD ratio all day long. All I need to do is make a character that is not my main and let my buddies kill me all day (and vice versa).

Agreed! This is why I really like the Destiny app because it gives in depth statistics. If somebody wants to brag about their KD ratio alone we can simply view their split stats to see exactly how much "skill" they have. As you've stated I agree that if you're going to play a game mode then play it for it's objective. KD ratio isn't the only stat to consider, but it is a very important stat. It shows efficiency. For example your control scenario. Do you want somebody who captures zones efficiently or just keeps going full speed getting slaughtered over and over again allowing the points to snowball for the other team?

[53Driver]

Originally Posted by MokSpeed

It won't affect me. I have a fire team of 6 I play with in PvP specifically to avoid this. If anything you could see it as a raid against an opposing team.




That is incorrect. Crucible gear is not specific to PvP. The main point of PvP is Bungie staying true to its roots (Halo) as many of those who play this game are playing this game because it's a shooter. Also, Crucible marks are an alternative to Vanguard marks. Just as you play missions and accept bounties for the vanguard to unlock legendary gear, I am doing the same in the Crucible. I like their direction with this because you give the gamer a choice in how they wish to level and grind whether it be PvE or PvP. My crucible level is almost 3 and I am barely level 1 in the vanguard so I see no need in playing missions to earn gear. Basically I did not rely on farming engrams as most who play PvE do. Rather I just took matters into my own hands and kept winning games in PvP so I can just buy my gear. It takes the RNGesus out of the equation.

So to confirm, Crucible armor/weapons can be carried over to PvE missions? Looking at the Crucible armor/weapons, they all have very high defense/damage numbers but if I also remember correctly you have to be level 20 or higher to use them? Right now I am lvl 17 so maybe that's why I haven't focused too much on the PvP part of the game. If it carries over, then I can see it becoming worthwhile to spend some time in the Crucible. So far the only reasons I've played the Crucible is for change of scenery and trying to improve my skills at it. It's definitely is more challenging playing people. Having a dedicated team with solid tactics would make a huge difference. I usually try to stick with one or two other players when I play it but it seems most people just randomly run and jump all over the place so sometimes it's hard to stay someones wingman, especially if they don't realize you're trying to help be productive.

[f0rge]

Oh man finally picked up my first lengendary primary weapon last night!

An FWC Pulse Rifle called "The Conduit". Bonuses are pretty meh but it's still a nice gun, better than the blues I've been using anyway.

[MokSpeed]

Originally Posted by 53Driver

So to confirm, Crucible armor/weapons can be carried over to PvE missions? Looking at the Crucible armor/weapons, they all have very high defense/damage numbers but if I also remember correctly you have to be level 20 or higher to use them? Right now I am lvl 17 so maybe that's why I haven't focused too much on the PvP part of the game. If it carries over, then I can see it becoming worthwhile to spend some time in the Crucible. So far the only reasons I've played the Crucible is for change of scenery and trying to improve my skills at it. It's definitely is more challenging playing people. Having a dedicated team with solid tactics would make a huge difference. I usually try to stick with one or two other players when I play it but it seems most people just randomly run and jump all over the place so sometimes it's hard to stay someones wingman, especially if they don't realize you're trying to help be productive.

Correct. Crucible and Vanguard gear are equally as important as their differing stats allow different builds for your character. That is one very good point you bring up. Bungie needs to work on the "anti social" aspect of the game. I don't like that in PvP you can't hear your teammates over the mic unless you're in their fire team. I would like to be able to communicate with my teammates and vice versa!

[53Driver]

Originally Posted by MokSpeed

Correct. Crucible and Vanguard gear are equally as important as their differing stats allow different builds for your character. That is one very good point you bring up. Bungie needs to work on the "anti social" aspect of the game. I don't like that in PvP you can't hear your teammates over the mic unless you're in their fire team. I would like to be able to communicate with my teammates and vice versa!

I agree, the PvP section seems very anti-social unless you already have a fireteam of your own. Ironically, in Titanfall, I have used the other team's conversations against them by listening to where they are and what they are trying to do. Kind of a gamer's "SIGINT" type of ordeal. So if they do eventually allow us to talk to fellow teammates, I hope they do it in such a fashion where you can't be heard talking by the other team.

[wheelhaus]

Originally Posted by 53Driver

So what's the point of PvP in this game other than to have a change of scenery? I'm asking this in all seriousness. I really don't know. I get the feeling that there are quite a few who spend a majority of their time in their because the few times I've tried my hand at it I seem like I get smoked constantly, even when I know I'm hitting them in return. The tactics in PvE definitely does not carry over to PvP and maybe my weapon choices have been poor. I also haven't bought or earned any Crucible designated stuff so I'm sure that doesn't help. Crucible weapons/armor can't be carried over to PvE missions correct?

The biggest draw in any game that features PvP is twofold, the challenge and the interaction. Playing a shooter against AI is one thing, you're the dominant force, you simply have to figure out how to achieve it. Since your enemy never really changes tactics, it's only a matter of time until you can defeat them in one way or another. Consider a game like the Dark Souls series, massive, powerful bosses that can sometimes destroy you in a single hit. Once you learn their patterns and tells, you can eventually dance around them and defeat them every single time.

PvP however, is against other players, other human beings that use rational thought, irrational thought, and emotion to make decisions. You'll catch people doing extremely dumb things, and you'll also see people getting the drop on you every single time. Try to figure out how they're always one step ahead of you.. They become much more unpredictable, and that makes you play smarter. They change tactics, strategies, styles, etc, they constantly adapt. When you're playing with/against other humans, the dynamics are much different than against AI and it requires you to play differently as well.

Weapon choices should be based on your play style and strengths, but you first need to adapt to the PvP mentality first. Running out in the open is just as deadly as taking a single point of cover and having a shoot out with someone behind another point of cover. Another team mate is going to see the firefight and immediately close in on you. You should be looking for the most common routes people blindly sprint through, look for areas that give you temporary cover, and keep moving. Don't run blindly, but pick routes that seem uncommon. Frequently duck behind cover and see if anyone was following you. Try to anticipate other's movements and toss a grenade where you think they'll be in 2-3 seconds. THink like a human against other humans and you'll start having more success. You can't just think "I need to get a bunch of kills" without trying to think like the enemy.

Using a hand cannon or scout rifle in PvE is easy enough, the AI will nearly stand still and ask for headshots. PvP however, you need to have quicker aim and almost a flick/twitch reflex to nick those headshots efficiently. Many opt to instead use weapons that are more effective at laying down a heavier blanket of fire like pulse rifles, auto rifles, or shotguns, but they require at least a steady aim to maintain damage. Still practice on getting the crosshairs over that head... Semi auto weapons are plenty effective, but require more aggressive timing in PvP.

PvP essentially makes it feel like a completely different game. That's why it's so popular and why some get so competitive with it.