Shopping for Supercharger

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by KonTheory

Well this is quite the debate lol
For my intentions since I live up in cananada...
I will have to stick to 91/93 octane tunes since there's no e85 around
So I'm hoping for something around 280+whp on pump.. If that's obtainable I'd be happy

I have some links about the KW kit in my bookmarks so I can share them with you..
take a look at the dyno graph in this link and you'll notice it's pretty easy to reach that number on dynojet and even more with some supporting mods (header, full exhaust etc)

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48406

my car made 273whp with OEM header and front pipe and catback

and some more links that you may find helpful

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61589


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71679

[gmsii]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

@CSG Mike may chime in here with more details on the JR kit, but I'll give you my perspective on both. I own neither kit and my BRZ is still n/a for the time being.

if you own neither kit, then what you are saying is 'here say'

JR offers a full plug and play THERMOSTATIC oil cooler kit with the largest volume core. KW oil cooler kit does not have a thermostatic option (risky in the winter) and has a smaller, less efficient core.

saying the core is smaller or less efficient is also 'here say'...the original post made by CSG claiming the KW cooler as being smaller was incorrect because JR gives over all cooler dimensions, and KW gives cooling core dimensions...if someone want to bring over a JR cooler we would be happy to measure and provide a definitive answer on who's cooler is bigger

as for the thermostat, if you are in an area where it is cold enough to need one, they cost about $26 and are readily available.

KW kit is far more complex and will take longer to install. Their cogged belts are known to break, ironically, since the separate belt design is supposed to be better for reliability. KW SC belts have also been on back order and are hard to get spares.

the KW kit is as complex as it needs to be....to say that it is 'far more complex' is a gross overstatement

JR SC kit is much simpler and has a much better track record and owners have reported ZERO issues since launch. KW owners have had various issues with missing parts, fitment, and belts breaking in customer kits and in KW's ongoing track testing. JR track tested their kit extensively prior to release and put it through it's paces and released it 100% complete with no if's and's or but's, while KW were scrambling to fix their issues post-release and are STILL awaiting CARB approval.

KW had some teething issues with the initial kitting, but that is sorted out now. And even if there was an issue, you can fully expect the KW customer service staff to take care of it. We have only had one reported belt breakage issue and that was from a car that was tracked very hard and more regularly than any other kit we know of. And as for CARB approval, it is a long process, but we should have approval shortly.

In my opinion JR SC is the way to go since it has undergone far more testing prior to release to ensure perfect fitment, and it is a much simpler design. All the "perks" of the KW kit are just over-complexities that IMO aren't necessary to have solid results. The giant mounting bracket adds weight and complexity, as does the cogged pulley for the separate belt. It also blocks out traditional Mocal style thermostatic oil cooler sandwich plates to be used. The "cold air intake" for the KW kit just makes changing your air filter more of a pain. The JR SC intake/filter design draws air from the same location and testing data from CSG has proven that the intake air temps are still lower than stock with the JR kit. Also the intake and IC piping in the KW kit force you to replace the washer fluid tank with a much smaller one (arguably another complexity) and the JR piping allows you to retain the stock one. Some will argue the bigger intake/IC piping in the KW kit allow more airflow and power, but the dyno's tell a different story. JR chose their piping to get the amount of air velocity they wanted to achieve the results they wanted during the EXTENSIVE testing of their CARB tune which is a very safe and reliable tune for all possible conditions.

funny how your opinion has a tendency to spin features and benefits into 'penalties'. how the KW kit is designed and laid out allows for the kit to be upgraded with not only different pulleys for boost, but also bigger superchargers (ie C38). the new washer bottle allows the use of 2.5" diameter piping which would otherwise be impossible with the stock bottle; which by the way we sell a bunch of them by themselves to other people who realize the advantage of using larger piping.
In the end, until the JR kit becomes upgradeable, they wont know what affect larger diameter tubing will have on power. There are KW kits already making over 400hp to the wheels, and we can tell you without a doubt that extra 0.5" diameter makes a difference.

as for intake temps, the space inside the bumper cover is 10-15F degrees cooler than in the engine compartment. to say it doesnt make a difference is a stretch.

The JR kit will be upgradeable in the future and said upgrades are currently being tested (guessing a smaller pulley for the C30). The C38 blower is infamous for being tough to tune (tip in knock) and being "too big" for the engine to use effectively considering the VE limits of a stock FA20. Ask one of the experts, James Martin @ HRI tuning (on Facebook), about his experiences with it and he'll tell you the same thing.The C30-94 in the JR kit more than capable of delivering 300whp on E85 with the included pulley and a custom tune. Add a header and full exhaust and expect even more.

it sure has been a long time for something that should be as simple as a pulley change...jus sayin. perhaps the JR layout does not allow for enough belt wrap around a smaller pulley. and i'd be very surprised if the JR kit in its current layout would ever be able to run a C38; hood clearance, intake tube clearance, belt wrap/grip are all issues that would need to be addressed.

there are no issues with running the C38....tuning is not difficult.
as much power as 300whp on E85 is, with the increasing number of KW C38 kits being sold it is clear that there are plenty of people that just crave more power. With the C38 on a mild tune, cars are making 315whp on crappy 91oct gas and over 400whp on E85

KW's rep will probably come in here and raise hell so just be prepared for a shit storm in defense of the KW kit.

no shit storm here...just the facts. these facts are also part of the reason why the KW kit significantly outsells the JR kit

[KonTheory]

Originally Posted by glamcem

I have some links about the KW kit in my bookmarks so I can share them with you..
take a look at the dyno graph in this link and you'll notice it's pretty easy to reach that number on dynojet and even more with some supporting mods (header, full exhaust etc)

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48406

my car made 273whp with OEM header and front pipe and catback

and some more links that you may find helpful

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61589


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71679

Thanks for the links...
The dyno that I usually use is Dyno Dynamics... and With the OFT tune I was at 179.7hp... is it possible to get 280whp on pump at a dynamics dyno?
I know dynojet tend to run really high, and Id be hoping to hit 280 on the dynamic dyno

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by glamcem;1959535
[B

For WRX:[/B]

• Pros:
• OEM power
• easy bolt on upgrades will net you a lot more power (Stage 1 and Stage 2)
• A lot more comfort with extra space and 4 doors
• better interior, ergonomics ..etc
• AWD fun in the snow
• in general a lot more fun in the street due to the AWD, turbo
  
• Cons:
• less track ready
• heat is a bigger issue at the track( compared to even aftermarket SC)
• will eat your tires pretty quickly
• understeer is built-in even you dial your suspension

I think we should always consider the "worst case scenario" when modding our cars, yes SC is a lot safer aftermarket option but you still add about 60-65% additional power to your car ..

You've never been a well set up Wrx then...

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by KonTheory

Thanks for the links...
The dyno that I usually use is Dyno Dynamics... and With the OFT tune I was at 179.7hp... is it possible to get 280whp on pump at a dynamics dyno?
I know dynojet tend to run really high, and Id be hoping to hit 280 on the dynamic dyno

sorry I have no experience with that dyno so I can't say anything..

but in general (from what I've seen so far) Rotrex kits generally add anywhere between 100-130 whp depends on the dyno, fuel and supporting mods

take a look at the below numbers I've seen and the gain compared to a bone stock BRZ

I took my car to Drift Office today for a dyno session I am really happy with the results
Ambient temps were about 72F

and compared to stock baseline

[CSG Mike]

@gmsii is there a reason your kit is taking so much longer to get a CARB certification than the other three kits? It's been well over a year since your "CARB pending" announcement.

[86SPEED]

Here is a dyno of a KW kit on a customers BRZ. C38 with the smaller high boost pulley, 900cc injectors, DW pump, not sure the brand but EL headers, perrin over pipe, miltek catless front pipe, HKS catback. 309 on pump 91 408 on E85 on Church's Dynopack here in Vegas, elevation 2531 feet. He has been on it since June with zero issues with the kit.

That said to be 100% honest, so not to sound to biased, i also have the same kit, C38 with the small pulley, 750 grams injector and pump, MXP UEL header, over pipe, i put the stock front pipe back on, and greddy evo3 catback. i havent been dyno'd or on E85 yet, and yesterday i did have a belt failure.. it was no fault of the KW kit, but me not having it tight enough and it was slapping the lower mount, once KW heard the noise at 86fest, and pointed it out to me, which was a stupid mistake since i ran with the numbers they gave for the bigger pulley belt tension (21mm) after i tighten it belt slap went away but i already damaged the belt with 600 miles of it slapping around. it showed wear and we figured it didnt have much life left.. so on the way to work, i noticed a power loss and no boost, but it still made it to work 13 miles away with no issues. Again, it did fail and break but it was my installation mistake more so then the kit. i also know of over 60 KW owners and what 15 or so JR owners.. its hard to go through their thread and count numbers, im not bringing that up for anything but the number of kits out there and how its easier to say this kit has this many problems compared to that kit..

personally i dont think you will go wrong with any kit you choose. BUT the fact i can drive my kit without the belt is the selling factor for me.. AND the myth that you have to remove the unit to change belts is false, i put on the belt yesterday in under 15 mins just removing the oil filter and the lower mount..




-Thomas

[ATL BRZ]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

@gmsii is there a reason your kit is taking so much longer to get a CARB certification than the other three kits? It's been well over a year since your "CARB pending" announcement.

It sure has been a long time for something as simple as CARB approval...jus sayin.

[gmsii]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

@gmsii is there a reason your kit is taking so much longer to get a CARB certification than the other three kits? It's been well over a year since your "CARB pending" announcement.

real simple...we had a later start than the other three
dont worry...its coming...along with the certs on several other kits

[gmsii]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

It sure has been a long time for something as simple as CARB approval...jus sayin.

anyone who calls 'carb approval' simple has never applied for it for the first time....so unless you've done so, perhaps you shouldnt be sayin

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

You've never been a well set up Wrx then...

actually I have except of course the new 2015 WRX

Since I personally owned two STIs and also drove many well setup track prepped WRX and STIs I can tell you that I'd much rather owning a FRS/BRZ for mainly track use, to each his own of course

also STI has a lot more sophisticated suspension and traction system as you know, so I bet it should take a lot of effort to properly adjust a WRX to compete against an STI at the track.. the new engine in WRX looks superior to the new STI though

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-revi...aru-wrx-vs-sti

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by glamcem

actually I have except of course the new 2015 WRX

Since I personally owned two STIs and also drove many well setup track prepped WRX and STIs I can tell you that I'd much rather owning a FRS/BRZ for mainly track use, to each his own of course

also STI has a lot more sophisticated suspension and traction system as you know, so I bet it should take a lot of effort to properly adjust a WRX to compete against an STI at the track.. the new engine in WRX looks superior to the new STI though

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-revi...aru-wrx-vs-sti

We're getting a bit off topic, but our WRX rotates just fine.... but our setup also goes against what all the traditional subie tuners do.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

We're getting a bit off topic, but our WRX rotates just fine.... but our setup also goes against what all the traditional subie tuners do.

you're right, I was a bit off topic..my apologies..

I 've just commenting on Grammicci's post about the WRX vs SC twins

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by gmsii

real simple...we had a later start than the other three
dont worry...its coming...along with the certs on several other kits

Vortech took around 9 months.
Innovate took around 11 months.
Jackson Racing took about 2 months.

You're at 16 months and counting.