FA20 Engine Oiling, Bearings, and Starvation

[imom]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

I'm not running a factory ecu, I'm running a Hydra EMS first off. The direct injection to port injection strategy differs from the factory ecu. Now while you could tune your Hydra to very closely mimic the factory strategy I've chosen to tune them more independently and I run as much fuel as I can through the DI injector to help keep it cool and to cool the combustion process. I then use the port injectors to suppliment the DI and to provide the overall fuel volume I need for more power. We also have DI pump control and in some areas I may be easier on the DI pump and other areas run it harder to get the extra DI flow I want.

Thank you for the explanation. Since the DI have rubber seals on them that can get too hot and melt. Couldn't there be a different way; maybe a different head or work around that can use say a metal threaded injectors instead of rubber seals so the cylinders don't leak from the direct injectors? Your engine sounds fantastic... but that's doing a whole tear down and rebuilt for racing which is quite a different need for a street car like mine that will never track. 100% agree if you can build a reliable track car that the street car can be reliable too; but the cost associated is significantly more.

Is it the only way to fix the DI seal issue is to do as you said where you reverse the way the engine is fueled? The DI gets all the fuel it can to cool the rubber seals and the port injectors are the supplement.... can it be though if the engine still gets to hot that the seals eventually will still cause a leak from heat damage of the seals?

So if I had force induction bolted on...then I got an engine tune where the DI are the main fuel source and the port injectors are the supplement fuel supply...will that be enough for say 250 to 300WHP and have a reliable motor?
I'm sure the motor will need an oil cooler and intercooler, but just want to know how reliable is this route given your experience and expertise in this matter. Thanks for the advice Phil.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by imom

Thank you for the explanation. Since the DI have rubber seals on them that can get too hot and melt. Couldn't there be a different way; maybe a different head or work around that can use say a metal threaded injectors instead of rubber seals so the cylinders don't leak from the direct injectors? Your engine sounds fantastic... but that's doing a whole tear down and rebuilt for racing which is quite a different need for a street car like mine that will never track. 100% agree if you can build a reliable track car that the street car can be reliable too; but the cost associated is significantly more.

Is it the only way to fix the DI seal issue is to do as you said where you reverse the way the engine is fueled? The DI gets all the fuel it can to cool the rubber seals and the port injectors are the supplement.... can it be though if the engine still gets to hot that the seals eventually will still cause a leak from heat damage of the seals?

So if I had force induction bolted on...then I got an engine tune where the DI are the main fuel source and the port injectors are the supplement fuel supply...will that be enough for say 250 to 300WHP and have a reliable motor?
I'm sure the motor will need an oil cooler and intercooler, but just want to know how reliable is this route given your experience and expertise in this matter. Thanks for the advice Phil.

The DI injectors use Teflon seals, the same material used by most, possibly all, other manufactures of gasoline direct injected engines. The melted seals was due to a timing strategy the factory used between shifts, shift often enough at high rpm and the seals would melt. That strategy was fixed within the ECU's tuning and to my limited knowledge the issues went away after that.

Yes, I to have thought the use of Teflon instead of a copper o-ring is a little absurd. But clearly it can work just fine. There will always be unexpected issues with a new product, but this one is fixed now.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by imom

Thank you for the explanation. Since the DI have rubber seals on them that can get too hot and melt. Couldn't there be a different way; maybe a different head or work around that can use say a metal threaded injectors instead of rubber seals so the cylinders don't leak from the direct injectors? Your engine sounds fantastic... but that's doing a whole tear down and rebuilt for racing which is quite a different need for a street car like mine that will never track. 100% agree if you can build a reliable track car that the street car can be reliable too; but the cost associated is significantly more.

Is it the only way to fix the DI seal issue is to do as you said where you reverse the way the engine is fueled? The DI gets all the fuel it can to cool the rubber seals and the port injectors are the supplement.... can it be though if the engine still gets to hot that the seals eventually will still cause a leak from heat damage of the seals?

So if I had force induction bolted on...then I got an engine tune where the DI are the main fuel source and the port injectors are the supplement fuel supply...will that be enough for say 250 to 300WHP and have a reliable motor?
I'm sure the motor will need an oil cooler and intercooler, but just want to know how reliable is this route given your experience and expertise in this matter. Thanks for the advice Phil.

Well keep in mind we race our "street" engines and my car is a daily driver...sort of. LOL! Hey it has AC and I race it to an from work

You are asking to double your factory HP at the wheels, remember that, race car or not. They just don't over engineer engines like they used to.

Now I raced my car pretty hard with the Hydra EMS and the factory motor both in NA form and boosted. It was pretty reliable to about 340 whp but it snapped the rods at about 400 hp under racing conditions. What this thread is mostly about is the safety of the oil pressure at higher power levels and we can only "fix" oil pressure with an engine build at this point. We will be releasing a "bolt-on" solution also but I wouldn't consider this an easier solution.

The DI seals are plastic like mentioned (not rubber) and it's a known concern on all DI engines being run hard. You have to keep them cool and by doubling the HP you aren't helping that. LOL! It's really not the head temperature that's causing the seals to fail, it's combustion temperature and pressure. Detonation spikes cylinder pressure immensely and not keeping the body of the injector cool is why they fail. So kill the detonation events, increase fuel flow through the body of the DI injector, and you could also supplement that with a Hydramist Injection kit if using the Hydra EMS.

Bottom line is to stay really conservative on your boosted application when using the factory motor. I don't really see with good tuning a 250-280 whp setup being trouble for a factory engine at all. All of that is highlighted throughout this thread.

[solidONE]

Oh wow! Thanks for doing all the hard work. Hopefully by the time I dig into the engine you guys will have figured out all the problems and came up with (cost) effective solutions. Looks like it's heading that direction. Cheers and mad props to you and your team, good sir!


Subbed

[TkTk]

Congratulations on solving the oil presure problem. I have been following you from the start and I have to say I am speechless. No one has taken the fa20 this far yet.

I know by now you solved the fuel starvation and oil pressure problems, but what about heat management when you are at 450-500hp TC built motor ? TC produce significantly more heat than a SC, so why go that route? And how are you managing the heat under these loads? I don't think an oil cooler setup and a vented hood will be enough.

[Andreas83]

Has anyone seen these?
http://www.rhdjapan.com/reimax-oil-p...20-brz-86.html
Googled reimax pump gears and found a lot of rb26 builds using pump gears from reimax.

[Majik]

Amazing thread. You just got yourself a new fan Phil!

[Andreas83]

X2
A lot of useful info in this thread.
Blew my motor a couple of weeks ago.
My dealer probably wont cover it due to mods, still NA, not FI.
So I am looking for a used long block to get the car running again.
I was logging when it broke down, something happened and oil temp reached 130C before i noticed the noise it was making.
Normally I am using a obd gauge with alarms to let me know if stuff gets to hot.
But the ecutek cable was hooked up, so i did not get any warnings...

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by Andreas83

Has anyone seen these?
http://www.rhdjapan.com/reimax-oil-p...20-brz-86.html
Googled reimax pump gears and found a lot of rb26 builds using pump gears from reimax.

I actually did see that early on and I had also researched the JDM Impreza 12mm oil pump gear. Just keep in mind the FA20 already has a 12mm gear but a different profile. The FA profile reduces pressure early in the RPM range and makes it more linear and I suspect that was for efficiency at low RPM.

Now I jumped straight over that to the same gear profile but a 14mm oil pump. It helped but was no way "good" and still dropped pressure too low. We went back to the OEM oil pump, internal modifications, oil cooler, etc to get where we are today.

Now if you have a really small turbocharger that has really high torque numbers below 4k RPM we may add this type of gear profile as an option to our engine build also.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by Andreas83

X2
A lot of useful info in this thread.
Blew my motor a couple of weeks ago.
My dealer probably wont cover it due to mods, still NA, not FI.
So I am looking for a used long block to get the car running again.
I was logging when it broke down, something happened and oil temp reached 130C before i noticed the noise it was making.
Normally I am using a obd gauge with alarms to let me know if stuff gets to hot.
But the ecutek cable was hooked up, so i did not get any warnings...

Sorry to hear that! You should give me a call. Sometimes "blown" isn't as bad as you think. We could probably rebuild most of what you have, perform the internal modifications so you have better oil pressure. Odds are you damaged the crank and some rods but the rest may be perfectly serviceable.

For NA you don't need to build up to "turbo" strength so it won't cost an arm and a led. Food for thought. I think you'll really regret it down the road if you put the same thing back in and then have the same exact failure (which is what you should expect).

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by TkTk

Congratulations on solving the oil presure problem. I have been following you from the start and I have to say I am speechless. No one has taken the fa20 this far yet.

I know by now you solved the fuel starvation and oil pressure problems, but what about heat management when you are at 450-500hp TC built motor ? TC produce significantly more heat than a SC, so why go that route? And how are you managing the heat under these loads? I don't think an oil cooler setup and a vented hood will be enough.

There are definitely some advantages to a supercharger if you want very modest hp. First the power is linear so you don't need as much oil pressure as fast. Also because most turbocharger kits place the turbo between the radiator and the block you get more radiant heat and less flow through the radiator. Even with a supercharger however engine oil temps are no better, they are still sky high.

A turbocharger will make way more power and way more torque than a supercharger (on the FA) and that's the advantage.

Now on a race car not having a turbocharger behind the radiator would allow for nice ducting to produce more flow and downforce out the hood. For our car we just abandoned anything aftermarket "bolt-on" as I knew it would never be enough for racing at our power level. The cores are just physically too small given it can't be ducted ideally.


We just decided to build a custom radiator setup and run a massive core similar to what we race with in our Time Attack STi. This required some custom fabricating but nothing crazy at all. Just a new bumper beam and radiator support which allows us to mount the radiator straight up and down so it can be taller.



Keeping your engine water temperature cool will also help with oil cooling.

We then went with the large louvered hood vents to help evacuate and improve downforce at hight speeds.



Thanks,
Phil Grabow

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

OIL!
Thanks,
Phil Grabow

I wanted to follow up as I am finishing the 2nd part of the S2000/FRS video and due to the scary low oil pressures on 0w20 with forced induction oil cooler and very modest power. (low 40s PSI at 225F Oil Temps)

Prior to the "race" we switched the FRS to Redline 10w30.
Now of course today we happen to get near record cold at 39F.
It's a can't win scenario.

Cold start was 120PSI. But the worst part was between the cooler and the oil during the day at 55F, oil temps would not exceed over 175F street driving and pressures remained much higher. (Perrin Oil Cooler with Mocal Unit) Not until we sat at idle out of open air did oil temps hit 185F which mean oil pressures were high all the time.

Quick Comparison:

0W20 Redline

0w20 Redline 185F @ 800RPM 10PSI Oil Pressure
0w20 Redline 185F @ 2000RPM 35PSI Oil Pressure
0w20 Redline 185F @ 4000RPM 54PSI Oil Pressure
0w20 Redline 185F @ 7000RPM 65PSI Oil Pressure


10W30 Redline

10w30 Redline 185F @ 800RPM 19PSI Oil Pressure
10w30 Redline 185F @ 2000RPM 51PSI Oil Pressure
10w30 Redline 185F @ 4000RPM 65PSI Oil Pressure
10w30 Redline 185F @ 7000RPM 83PSI Oil Pressure


I will have race data next week, but so far if you are running the car as a daily driver, not on track in colder (Below 60F) weather definately stick with 0w20.
Pressures are way too high for way too long with 10w30.

[kombatlion]

So if I live in wheather where is above 70F you think using 10W30 as daily with my Turbo is ok?

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by kombatlion

So if I live in wheather where is above 70F you think using 10W30 as daily with my Turbo is ok?

The straight answer is yes if you have a turbo and warm temps. You will want to monitor your oil temps now however and see where your oil temps are now before switching.