Twins vs 2015 z06

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by Jaden

You can't put qualifications like STOCK GROUND CLEARANCE on a comparison between modded and stock cars.

This was in just to troll you

Just like everyone else, you're counting other people doing the work for you.

I know i can't personally do all that work by myself but i made it very clear that someone with the right qualification, and a lot of expereince, could.

I rebuild my own engines, been doing it for 25 years.

I built an engine when i was 18 and it ran to 10,500 RPMS for close to 50k miles+. The only parts I didn't install were the crank and pistons because I didn't have the experience, nor did I want to risk it. Valves, oil pump, timing chain, cams, springs, ect were all done by me.

Would I in this case? probably not you can buy a balanced and blueprinted lower compression shortblock for 4K with forged internals so why would I need to.

yeah but just because it says forged doesn't mean the product isn't still shit. I personally wouldn't buy a short block for $4,000 when the stock motor from factory costs more. This engine isn't your grandmas LS1 you can pick up for a grand.

I'm doing things differently than most people would because I bought this car specifically for what it is to test bed certain things I'm designing and prototyping..

I'm not going to get into details here.

I'm cool with that, the car is less than 3 years old. There's a lot of parts that aren't proven for this car. IE: PTuning's header is the FIRST quality header thus far I've seen. And no offence to anyone else, but all other headers look pretty shit on quality.

One of the things I would do if I was going to put that much money into the car would be to take out the trans and the diff and put in a rear mounted sequential transaxle. Remove 60-70 lbs and make the weight dist a perfect 50-50.

50-50 Isn't perfect for every car and there isn't really room to mount a transmission in the rear unless you get rid of the gas tank.

that's 15-20K right there though.

exactly, you can spend $5,000 - $10,000 on a transmission that is perfectly capable of handling that power.

With that done though, you would have to do much less in some other areas.

People are making 400 reliably with turbos and stock internals.

I wouldn't be going that route, but I can't talk online about some of the things I'm doing.

Internals would NOT have to be upgraded to make over 500hp though with what I'm working on.

300whp is a ticking time bomb in our cars and it has been proven to be so on the forced induction section

You want to talk about it a LITTLE bit, pm me and I'll give you my number and we can discuss it a little bit.

One thing that I'm currently working on that I WILL touch on is an axial compressor based supercharger. Much more efficient than other types and shouldn't even require an intercooler because of that.

I'm interested. Build thread?

That in conjunction with the other main thing I'm working on will easily be good for over 500hp, which has been shown to put the 86 on par with a 458 Italia, so do you think a stock Z06 will beat a 458 Italia???

looking at the stats, yeah it should. it's almost as light and more powerful to say the least. EDIT was thinking of another car 458 is pretty damn light at 3k lbs and 2,8xx lbs for the speciale

I don't know if I'm going to do all of these things. I have stuff in the works, but you should know about the 'plans of mice and men'.

The things that I would be doing would total less than 33K... bringing grand total for me to 53K if I were to attempt to better the Z06 with my car.

Again, though, like you said, until we have hard numbers, we won't even know what the Z06 is capable of.

I would be happy being on par with the 458 Italia though

Jaden

Yeah it really is hard to tell and the 86 that beat the 458 did it on a small track. on a larger track the 458 might be faster just because of top end and stopping power.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Jaden

You can't put qualifications like STOCK GROUND CLEARANCE on a comparison between modded and stock cars.

Well, it should have stock-ish ground clearance. If you're running the car an inch off the ground, it's clearly not as practical as a Z06...

Originally Posted by Jaden

Just like everyone else, you're counting other people doing the work for you.

I rebuild my own engines, been doing it for 25 years.

Would I in this case? probably not you can buy a balanced and blueprinted lower compression shortblock for 4K with forged internals so why would I need to.

I'd be very surprised if that 4k shortblock could handle >500hp consistently and reliably.

Originally Posted by Jaden

One of the things I would do if I was going to put that much money into the car would be to take out the trans and the diff and put in a rear mounted sequential transaxle. Remove 60-70 lbs and make the weight dist a perfect 50-50.

That's a huge amount of money and effort right there...

Originally Posted by Jaden

People are making 400 reliably with turbos and stock internals.

Are they though? How many of those people track their cars, and how many can make it through a full track day without any overheating or other problems? Just making 400hp on an occasional highway pull is very different from being able to make 400hp reliably for long periods.

Originally Posted by Jaden

Internals would NOT have to be upgraded to make over 500hp though with what I'm working on.

I wouldn't count on that...

Originally Posted by Jaden

One thing that I'm currently working on that I WILL touch on is an axial compressor based supercharger. Much more efficient than other types and shouldn't even require an intercooler because of that.

Even if you can compress the air perfectly isentropically (zero loss), you'll still get a pretty significant temperature rise. You'll still want an intercooler to combat that. A perfect isentropic compression from 1 bar to 2 bar absolute (15psig post-supercharger) will still heat 80F air to nearly 200F.

Originally Posted by Jaden

That in conjunction with the other main thing I'm working on will easily be good for over 500hp, which has been shown to put the 86 on par with a 458 Italia, so do you think a stock Z06 will beat a 458 Italia???

C7? Actually, yes, I think the new C7 Z06 has a good shot at beating a 458 around most tracks. I also don't think an 86 running 500hp could beat a 458 around most tracks, at least not without a lot of other changes (suspension, aero, brakes, much larger contact patch). There's also the question of powerband - a turbocharged 2L making 500hp tends to have a pretty useless powerband except at high RPM with the turbo spooled. This is not what you want on a racetrack.

Originally Posted by Jaden

The things that I would be doing would total less than 33K... bringing grand total for me to 53K if I were to attempt to better the Z06 with my car.

Again, though, like you said, until we have hard numbers, we won't even know what the Z06 is capable of.

I would be happy being on par with the 458 Italia though

Jaden

As I've already mentioned, I'm not convinced that your listed changes would actually put an 86 on par with a 458 or Z06 though - simply being faster in a straight line, or even for a lap or two around a racetrack is not good enough. You need speed, reliability, and at least some semblance of practicality.

[n2oinferno]

Originally Posted by Jaden

and who is saying that you HAVE to have 40-50K in mods to compete with a Z06.. The point was if you DID put 40-50K in mods, you would likely destroy the z06...and if you can't afford that much right now, you can(for less) and spread out over time, get to the same level of performance... At least that was the only point I was trying to make.

This is the problem with that idea.

There is a point of diminishing returns where the amount of money you have to spend to get beyond a level of performance is crazily out of proportion.

You don't have to spend any where NEAR that much to put yourself really close to the level of performance of a Z06 in an 86, but to go substantially beyond that gets REALLY expensive.

And as I've already stated, you could buy a bare bones vette and put 25-30K and be better than the z06 too...

So really, it just comes down to whether you...

A) have 85-90K to spend right NOW,

B) want to have the ability to take it to the dealership and complain when something goes wrong(and we know the dealerships are ALWAYS on point with fixing issues under warranty-insert SARCASM-)

and or C) Don't care about having the pride of doing your own personal modifications to the car you drive.


I do find it funny though that the majority of people in the (can't be done) camp drive something ELSE...lol

let's see what comes next.

Jaden

Me. I am saying you have to have that much mods to compete with it. To put it on paper somewhat since we're talking about a car we don't know, let's build a twin to compete against a ZR1. And then keep in mind that the Z06 with Z07 package will likely outperform a ZR1.

And if you did put 40-50k in mods in a FRS, you'd destroy the car... Figuratively of course. It would not be as streetable as a Vette, or have as many creature comforts. Don't care, just want to go to the track? That's cool I suppose. But you can be damn sure if I'm spending 100 grand on a car it's going to be something I can drive every single day without tiring of it.

So I'll add another option for you.
D) Have pipe dreams that and want to justify your purchase and say "what I have has the potential to be better than X"

Seriously, I saw the exact same shit happen over at GenCoupe when it came out. People were like PRAISE THE NEW JESUSCAR!

So tell me this. How many twins out there are running 10s or 11s all day long? And then can that same car then go to a track that isn't straight and then haul balls in the twisties as well? And then drive home with no reliability issues whatsoever. Because that's what the Corvette does.

I'm no Corvette fanboy. It's just a damn good car that performs well above its price range.

And the comment about people driving other cars. I bought the Abarth because it was 95% of the fun of a FRS for 75% of the cost.
Oh shit and I can make it faster and better than a stock FRS for the same money as a FRS too!

[Jaden]

I already said I'm not going to discuss it online, too much risk..

I will say that it will add 60-90% of hp adding NO additional fuel while reducing strain on the internals of the engine...

Jaden

That should give an idea of WHY I won't discuss what it is.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

Me. I am saying you have to have that much mods to compete with it. To put it on paper somewhat since we're talking about a car we don't know, let's build a twin to compete against a ZR1. And then keep in mind that the Z06 with Z07 package will likely outperform a ZR1.

And if you did put 40-50k in mods in a FRS, you'd destroy the car... Figuratively of course. It would not be as streetable as a Vette, or have as many creature comforts. Don't care, just want to go to the track? That's cool I suppose. But you can be damn sure if I'm spending 100 grand on a car it's going to be something I can drive every single day without tiring of it.

So I'll add another option for you.
D) Have pipe dreams that and want to justify your purchase and say "what I have has the potential to be better than X"

Seriously, I saw the exact same shit happen over at GenCoupe when it came out. People were like PRAISE THE NEW JESUSCAR!

So tell me this. How many twins out there are running 10s or 11s all day long? And then can that same car then go to a track that isn't straight and then haul balls in the twisties as well? And then drive home with no reliability issues whatsoever. Because that's what the Corvette does.

I'm no Corvette fanboy. It's just a damn good car that performs well above its price range.

And the comment about people driving other cars. I bought the Abarth because it was 95% of the fun of a FRS for 75% of the cost.
Oh shit and I can make it faster and better than a stock FRS for the same money as a FRS too!

And I will NEVER claim that you couldn't... I guess that's the difference.

Jaden

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Jaden

I already said I'm not going to discuss it online, too much risk..

I will say that it will add 60-90% of hp adding NO additional fuel while reducing strain on the internals of the engine...

Jaden

That should give an idea of WHY I won't discuss what it is.

Sure, that gives me a perfect idea. Because it isn't possible. You can't add 60-90% hp with no additional fuel and no additional stress on an engine.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by chrisl

Sure, that gives me a perfect idea. Because it isn't possible. You can't add 60-90% hp with no additional fuel and no additional stress on an engine.

Ok... Whatever you say..You obviously know everything.. so I'll just bow out and stay out of these idiotic twin bashing threads.



Jaden

p.s. I couldn't actually care less. I got the twin because of the room in the engine compartment for testing my prototypes and because it's a light weight RWD platform. It does get funny watching all the twin bashers though and seeing what they have listed that they're driving... almost invariably something OTHER than a twin...

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Ok... Whatever you say..You obviously know everything.. so I'll just bow out and stay out of these idiotic twin bashing threads.

I don't need to know everything to know that if you could improve the engine efficiency by a factor of 1.5-2 (which is what you'd have to do to get more power without more fuel), manufacturers would already be doing it.

Originally Posted by Jaden

p.s. I couldn't actually care less. I got the twin because of the room in the engine compartment for testing my prototypes and because it's a light weight RWD platform. It does get funny watching all the twin bashers though and seeing what they have listed that they're driving... almost invariably something OTHER than a twin...

I don't think I have been bashing the twins here. Saying that they aren't a Z06 is hardly bashing - it's merely a statement of truth. The twins are fantastic cars, and I love the way they drive. Trying to make them as fast as a Z06 would kind of ruin the whole point of the car, to be honest.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by Jaden

That in conjunction with the other main thing I'm working on will easily be good for over 500hp, which has been shown to put the 86 on par with a 458 Italia, so do you think a stock Z06 will beat a 458 Italia???
Jaden

Seeing how the old z06 already beats the 458 italia, I somehow doubt the new one will be slower....

Nordschleife, Germany (20600 m)
12. Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 7:19.63 169 '08 647 / 1530 Jim Mero
13. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Z07 Package 7:22.68 168 '11 512 / 1394 Jim Mero
28. Ferrari 458 Italia 7:28.00 166 '09 570 / 1485

Hockenheim Short, Germany (2604 m)
8. Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 1:08.30 137 '08 647 / 1530
13. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Z07 Package 1:08.70 136 '11 512 / 1394
30. Ferrari 458 Italia 1:09.70 134 '09 570 / 1485

Laguna Seca, USA (3602 m)
2. Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 1:33.70 138 '08 647 / 1530 Randy Pobst
5. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Z07 Package 1:34.43 137 '11 512 / 1394
13. Ferrari 458 Italia 1:36.22 135 '09 570 / 1485 Randy Pobst

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Originally Posted by carbonBLUE

The Z06 is just like Godzilla. It's a lot of things that are engineered into the car from factory that is just 10x better than modding a cheaper car. Reliability is THE biggest factor here. I can't stress this enough.

Yup. I'm reminded of one of those shows (I think it was Fifth Gear) where they had a stock GT-R and a modded Evo (may have been a "stock" Evo X FQ-400 or something else with similar power), and there was still a big gap in their performance... and the Evo is no slouch, plus it already has a turbocharged motor anyway along with a lot of the goodies needed for performance. So all this talk is crazy.

[enjetek]

[PhoKingCool]

I am seriously laughing right now. This thread is such a waste of time to skim though but I must return just to see what absurd and irrelevant remarks are left.

[Atropine]

@Jaden

Your PM is fascinating man. For privacy purposes...I will not tell people what you told me..but I will say if he can get his idea to work...it will be awesome.

But one thing about this argument...

You do not represent the average backyard mechanic.

Your argument brings me back to the surgeon analogy...

I don't tell people they are stupid because they didn't do their own cardiac cath.

Very few people on this planet can do what I do...

That said...the last time I changed my own oil...I had to buy a new oil pan (forgot crush washer...doh)

I think you are totally qualified to build up a car yourself.

The thing is...you are a pro.

Let an average backyard mechanic year old try to do this them self...and they end up with a car that will indeed blow up and probably come apart and kill someone.

To say someone is "foolish to pay someone to do something that they can do them self" is a little misleading.

Most of us here who can either do a build them self (like a mechanic) or can PAY someone to do a build for them (someone who can afford to drop 70k into a toy car) are all professionals in SOMETHING.

Rather than try to crack my engine open and fiddle around in there and break something...I rather pull a little extra call...make a few grand over a weekend and do what I know how to do...and then use that money to pay someone who knows what they are doing.

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by Atropine

@Jaden

Your PM is fascinating man. For privacy purposes...I will not tell people what you told me..but I will say if he can get his idea to work...it will be awesome.

But one thing about this argument...

You do not represent the average backyard mechanic.

Your argument brings me back to the surgeon analogy...

I don't tell people they are stupid because they didn't do their own cardiac cath.

Very few people on this planet can do what I do...

That said...the last time I changed my own oil...I had to buy a new oil pan (forgot crush washer...doh)

I think you are totally qualified to build up a car yourself.

The thing is...you are a pro.

Let an average backyard mechanic year old try to do this them self...and they end up with a car that will indeed blow up and probably come apart and kill someone.

To say someone is "foolish to pay someone to do something that they can do them self" is a little misleading.

Most of us here who can either do a build them self (like a mechanic) or can PAY someone to do a build for them (someone who can afford to drop 70k into a toy car) are all professionals in SOMETHING.

Rather than try to crack my engine open and fiddle around in there and break something...I rather pull a little extra call...make a few grand over a weekend and do what I know how to do...and then use that money to pay someone who knows what they are doing.

Did he tell you his idea for a perpetual motion machine?