Advanced driving.

[stugray]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

It helps whether you say it doesn't, it's simple physics.

You dont get to make up your own physics.

The rear brakes can apply more than enough to lock the wheels.
Engine braking can do nothing to help the situation.
if A > B then B+C is still greater than A (assuming C>0)

In FACT the additional rotating mass of the engine could HINDER braking in certain circumstances.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by stugray

You dont get to make up your own physics.

The rear brakes can apply more than enough to lock the wheels.
Engine braking can do nothing to help the situation.
if A > B then B+C is still greater than A (assuming C>0)

In FACT the additional rotating mass of the engine could HINDER braking in certain circumstances.

I'm going by my track experience which is always faster to have the engine help with braking.

[cdrazic93]

I like toytles

[litemup]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

This car is so fucking slow I have to drop 3 gears on the highway to make a pass.

The car is not slow. It has a small-displacement, N/A, low-emission engine tuned to extract as much power as reasonable/possible without sacrificing too much bottom end or risk of premature failure.

It is an engineering and technological masterpiece, IMO. 3 gears (more like 2) on a 2-lane highway pass is to be expected and part of the fun.

I think OP is in the clutch business. I have read him suggest in earnest that the clutch should be used to maintain position while stopped on a grade.

I double-clutch downshifts and rev-match to be nice to my car and my wife's neck. If she can feel my shift, chances are I'll follow up with an "oops, 'scuse me."

Dig the spurs in too much and you just end up with a pissed-off horse.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

I'm going by my track experience which is always faster to have the engine help with braking.

That may be how it feels, but I'd be willing to bet that it isn't the case. If you found an empty section of road and compared the braking distance between the following two scenarios, I would bet that there would be almost no difference in braking distance (and the first situation might actually have a shorter stopping distance):

1) Braking down from some speed (say, 75mph) by pressing the clutch and brake pedals simultaneously (leaving the engine in neutral)
2) Braking down from the same speed using heel-toe downshifts

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by litemup

The car is not slow. It has a small-displacement, N/A, low-emission engine tuned to extract as much power as reasonable/possible without sacrificing too much bottom end or risk of premature failure.

It is an engineering and technological masterpiece, IMO. 3 gears (more like 2) on a 2-lane highway pass is to be expected and part of the fun.

I think OP is in the clutch business. I have read him suggest in earnest that the clutch should be used to maintain position while stopped on a grade.

I double-clutch downshifts and rev-match to be nice to my car and my wife's neck. If she can feel my shift, chances are I'll follow up with an "oops, 'scuse me."

Dig the spurs in too much and you just end up with a pissed-off horse.

Wow... that's like the #1 thing not to do...

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by paulca

If you are shifting correctly there won't be a lurch or a long drag of the clutch, maybe it is you who needs more brain cells or maybe you need to learn to drive a manual properly?

I know this has already been mentioned before, but I want to bring attention to it again. Please explain to me how exactly you think one should downshift "correctly" in a stick shift car. You keep talking about not needing to rev match, and how you should only use one pedal at a time, but as far as I know (and I've been driving stick shifts for quite a while), the only way to downshift without rev matching would be as follows:

1) Clutch in
2) Gear lever down to a lower gear (say, from 5 to 4)
3) Slowly let clutch out, waiting just past the friction point for engine revs to get dragged up to match the new higher transmission speed
4) Continue on in new gear

This is clearly not ideal, since you're slipping the clutch a lot in step 3 for no good reason. It also takes a second or two for the revs to match up, greatly slowing your shift time and impairing your ability to respond to anything on the road while in the middle of the shift. You also lose speed while the clutch is slipping, since the engine will be dragging on the car, and this could be a problem if the reason you were downshifting was to gain the extra power from the lower gear to climb a hill or pass someone on a 2-lane road. Especially in the passing situation, the safest way to pass is generally to get around the person being passed quickly, and not linger in the lane of oncoming traffic.

For comparison, the normal way to downshift that I use when driving on the road is this:

1) Clutch in
2) Move gear lever down to a lower gear while simultaneously applying a small amount of throttle to increase engine RPM to match transmission speed in the new, lower gear
3) Clutch out fairly quickly, with the goal being no change in revs due to the clutch engagement (which will happen if the throttle used in step 2 was the correct amount)
4) Continue on my way

Note that this does not require me to be driving in a "sporty" or "aggressive" fashion - many times in my Outback, I will downshift from 5th to 4th while traveling at 35 or 40mph, which involves raising the engine revs from 1500 or so in 5th gear up to perhaps 2200-2300 in 4th gear. Neither of those is anywhere close to the rev range used by people driving aggressively, but it is still useful to blip the throttle in the downshift.

Now, I do actually agree that heel-toe style shifting (downshifting with rev matching while braking) is unnecessary on the road, and double clutching is unnecessary pretty much everywhere, but proper rev matching is not an aggressive driving technique, and it helps both with driving smoothly and with component longevity (especially the clutch and transmission). Poor rev matching could even cause you to lose traction when in a slippery situation, such as when there is ice on the road (and you don't want to be trying to rev match for the first time in the middle of a snowstorm - by that point, you want it to be second nature so you can concentrate on driving safely in the adverse conditions).

[litemup]

Originally Posted by Propaganda

If I drove like it was the track, I don't know about you, but I would piss off A LOT of people on the road and also have the tickets to boot.

Braking + engine braking is faster than braking alone. In avoiding an accident, that could be critical, not to mention being in the "right gear", and not in 6th at 2000 rpms. Having more power and torque at your disposal could also be a critical step in accident avoidance.

^^this (edit: for accident avoidance only. not so much for the engine braking)

Originally Posted by Propaganda

Also, I do clutchless shift for fun every now and then. Shoot me.

^^this too. practice for when you might need it.

[chrisl]

Clutchless shifting is kinda hard on the synchros - I wouldn't get in the habit of doing it too often.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by chrisl

I know this has already been mentioned before, but I want to bring attention to it again. Please explain to me how exactly you think one should downshift "correctly" in a stick shift car. You keep talking about not needing to rev match, and how you should only use one pedal at a time, but as far as I know (and I've been driving stick shifts for quite a while), the only way to downshift without rev matching would be as follows:

1) Clutch in
2) Gear lever down to a lower gear (say, from 5 to 4)
3) Slowly let clutch out, waiting just past the friction point for engine revs to get dragged up to match the new higher transmission speed
4) Continue on in new gear

This is clearly not ideal, since you're slipping the clutch a lot in step 3 for no good reason. It also takes a second or two for the revs to match up, greatly slowing your shift time and impairing your ability to respond to anything on the road while in the middle of the shift. You also lose speed while the clutch is slipping, since the engine will be dragging on the car, and this could be a problem if the reason you were downshifting was to gain the extra power from the lower gear to climb a hill or pass someone on a 2-lane road. Especially in the passing situation, the safest way to pass is generally to get around the person being passed quickly, and not linger in the lane of oncoming traffic.

For comparison, the normal way to downshift that I use when driving on the road is this:

1) Clutch in
2) Move gear lever down to a lower gear while simultaneously applying a small amount of throttle to increase engine RPM to match transmission speed in the new, lower gear
3) Clutch out fairly quickly, with the goal being no change in revs due to the clutch engagement (which will happen if the throttle used in step 2 was the correct amount)
4) Continue on my way

Note that this does not require me to be driving in a "sporty" or "aggressive" fashion - many times in my Outback, I will downshift from 5th to 4th while traveling at 35 or 40mph, which involves raising the engine revs from 1500 or so in 5th gear up to perhaps 2200-2300 in 4th gear. Neither of those is anywhere close to the rev range used by people driving aggressively, but it is still useful to blip the throttle in the downshift.

Now, I do actually agree that heel-toe style shifting (downshifting with rev matching while braking) is unnecessary on the road, and double clutching is unnecessary pretty much everywhere, but proper rev matching is not an aggressive driving technique, and it helps both with driving smoothly and with component longevity (especially the clutch and transmission). Poor rev matching could even cause you to lose traction when in a slippery situation, such as when there is ice on the road.

This!

Yes, Heel toe braking is a bit excessive, but there's no denying it will keep the car smooth and in the proper gear while braking, especially when slowing down to a red light that might change before you arrive to it.

But one should always rev match when down shifting, be it heel toe or other wise.

[litemup]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

lol... no one notices when I downshift, I do it to keep the car as smooth as possible, something that can't be done unless you throw the car in neutral and only rely on the brakes to stop. even with downshifting 1 gear ant near idle, I can feel a slight change in g force that bother me.

I was late to the party.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by litemup

I was late to the party.

Very... I thought I had managed to kill this senseless thread...

[litemup]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

It helps whether you say it doesn't, it's simple physics.

Mmmmm, sorry Luis. Gotta disagree with you here. Engine braking is really only good for saving wheel brakes on long downhills.

[Jegan_V]

I disagree with the OP's notion that beginners shouldn't learn all the possible available techniques that are available to manual transmission drivers. I'm of the opinion they should learn them all, and after learning decide for themselves whether or not to apply them.

Learning to engine brake is a good item to know if your brakes for whatever reason failed. I personally don't engine brake since I prefer to use brake pads instead since I prefer to use the consumable instead, but I do know so that when needed I can still stop the car. Rev matching is a must know item. I do it for my normal drives as I prefer not to shock the drivetrain, if you drive economically you'll need to rev match as your engine speeds are very low. As Luis GT noted, its the only way to actually drive any manual car smoothly synchros or not. Double clutch, ok this one is less useful in modern cars...but again isn't it a good idea to at least know? Assuming a synchro malfunctioned, double clutching will be required. Heel and toe, this one isn't necessary for daily driving...but again should you need a quick gear change wouldn't it be nice to actually know this?

The best driver I feel is the most educated driver. The less they know, generally the worse they'll be.