Advanced driving.

[sklimo]

Originally Posted by Propaganda

You're absolutely right. The OP should be printed and framed

The Bible is shorter then op

[paulca]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

Clearly you suck at driving.

What are you 5?

This is not about what I can do or can't do, or about what you can do or can't do, it's about driving sensibly and not like it's a track. It's about teaching newbies to manuals a more systematic and sensible set of techniques which will serve them safely and well while they learn. When they get that down, then they can start playing with "sports" techniques.

For what it is worth I have had my driving of manuals assessed multiple times. I did 10 hours of training before I took my basic test and since then I have had several observation rides with advanced instructors, one of which was a police driving instructor. All feedback was good.

[sklimo]

It says in owners manual rev matching voids warranty

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by paulca

What are you 5?

This is not about what I can do or can't do, or about what you can do or can't do, it's about driving sensibly and not like it's a track. It's about teaching newbies to manuals a more systematic and sensible set of techniques which will serve them safely and well while they learn. When they get that down, then they can start playing with "sports" techniques.

For what it is worth I have had my driving of manuals assessed multiple times. I did 10 hours of training before I took my basic test and since then I have had several observation rides with advanced instructors, one of which was a police driving instructor. All feedback was good.

Fact still stands that you can't be smoother than a rev matched downshift, and I will continue to say you clearly don't know how to drive a manual, since you say it's extra workload to rev match downshift to slow down when it takes less than half a second to heel toe downshift and basically zero effort.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by sklimo

It says in owners manual rev matching voids warranty

Warranty is for pussies anyway

[Propaganda]

If I drove like it was the track, I don't know about you, but I would piss off A LOT of people on the road and also have the tickets to boot.

Braking + engine braking is faster than braking alone. In avoiding an accident, that could be critical, not to mention being in the "right gear", and not in 6th at 2000 rpms. Having more power and torque at your disposal could also be a critical step in accident avoidance.

Also, I do clutchless shift for fun every now and then. Shoot me.

[cdrazic93]

granny shiftin, not double clutchin like you should...

[stugray]

Originally Posted by Propaganda

Braking + engine braking is faster than braking alone. .

It absolutely is NOT!

SO tell me how this is. Are you saying that the brakes are not powerful enough to lock the wheels by themselves and require some extra force from the engine braking?

Or that engine braking somehow gives you a larger contact patch or higher friction coefficient?

The only way engine braking can help is in cornering.
You can get the car to shift weight forward (and decelerate) to setup for a corner without applying front brakes.

[stugray]

I agree with @paulca on almost every point.

The reason he is making this point is that a LOT of suggestions on these threads are trying to teach brand new drivers techniques that are NOT NECESSARY on the street.
He is using perfect logic and he gets bashed? WTF!?!?

I will add to this discussion with all of the people who feel the need to disable the traction control & vehicle stability control ALL OF THE TIME.

It is just plain stupid.

I will say it again "If the nannies on this car are 'interfering with your driving style' on the street then you drive like an asshat"
Yes I know I will get flamed for this, but it is a fact.

IF you are driving on city streets in such a way that you are constantly engaging the traction control (on dry pavement) then you dont know how to drive OR you are a hazard and should have your license revoked.
YES I know there will be some who say "Every time I make this ONE left hand turn....BLAH BLAH" YES I know that there are particular situations that confuse our systems, but those are the rare exceptions.

So IF you feel like you need to always disable the safety systems because they are engaging, then learn how to drive the car.

One prime example is watching people at the racetrack or even the go-cart track.
Lousy drivers will STOMP the gas and squeel the tires on every turn and MASH the brakes and wonder why the guy driving in what appears to be a relaxed manner ALWAYS has faster lap times.

The only reason the TCS & VC systems would piss you off on the street is that you are TRYING to OVERDRIVE THE CAR for the street - Period.

Bring on the flames

[Propaganda]

Originally Posted by stugray

It absolutely is NOT!

SO tell me how this is. Are you saying that the brakes are not powerful enough to lock the wheels by themselves and require some extra force from the engine braking?

Or that engine braking somehow gives you a larger contact patch or higher friction coefficient?

The only way engine braking can help is in cornering.
You can get the car to shift weight forward (and decelerate) to setup for a corner without applying front brakes.

Actually, no. It's been a miracle I haven't caused an accident and rear ended someone. I need to start slowing down thousands of feet prior to a stop.

And a larger contact patch... Hmmm maybe when the car squats down the tires expand or something?

Damn witchcraft

[stugray]

Originally Posted by Propaganda

Actually, no. It's been a miracle I haven't caused an accident and rear ended someone. I need to start slowing down thousands of feet prior to a stop.

I did not say that engine braking is in any way more dangerous than brakes alone.
You did not use one single fact in the statement above, only sarcasm.

I would just like for you to explain how "Braking + engine braking is faster than braking alone."

Originally Posted by Propaganda

And a larger contact patch... Hmmm maybe when the car squats down the tires expand or something?
Damn witchcraft

Just exactly the same as how the car squats down when applying the brakes.
Engine braking applies a torque to the rear wheels.
Brake braking applies a torque to the rear wheels.

Please explain how the road knows the difference between engine braking and brake braking.

Or are you trying to say that engine braking PLUS brake braking can apply more braking force than brakes alone? (that hurts my brain to proofread :-)

[Propaganda]

Originally Posted by stugray

I did not say that engine braking is in any way more dangerous than brakes alone.
You did not use one single fact in the statement above, only sarcasm.

I would just like for you to explain how "Braking + engine braking is faster than braking alone."



Just exactly the same as how the car squats down when applying the brakes.
Engine braking applies a torque to the rear wheels.
Brake braking applies a torque to the rear wheels.

Please explain how the road knows the difference between engine braking and brake braking.

Or are you trying to say that engine braking PLUS brake braking can apply more braking force than brakes alone? (that hurts my brain to proofread :-)

The entirety of my last post was sarcasm...

One torque plus another torque is greater than one torque alone, leaving out any negative or negating torques (not applicable in this case). My argument was that the combined efforts would be faster than a single effort.

I will not deny the fact that engine braking as a method of slowing down is not anywhere near as effective as brakes. Look at going down a hill, for example. However, what I failed to mention, which was not my argument, is contact patch, ie friction, as you had mentioned. Doesn't matter how or what type of brakes you have... tires hold no bias for braking force. They only allow for what they can handle. So yes, you are right, but so am I. I was arguing pure force. However, that does not transfer to the "real world" where 90% of the cars out there are running tires with TW>200.


I digress.... I had no input to this thread from the beginning. It is evidenced by my comments. This thread was doomed from the beginning, as evidenced by others' comments.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by stugray

I agree with @paulca on almost every point.

The reason he is making this point is that a LOT of suggestions on these threads are trying to teach brand new drivers techniques that are NOT NECESSARY on the street.
He is using perfect logic and he gets bashed? WTF!?!?

I will add to this discussion with all of the people who feel the need to disable the traction control & vehicle stability control ALL OF THE TIME.

It is just plain stupid.

I will say it again "If the nannies on this car are 'interfering with your driving style' on the street then you drive like an asshat"
Yes I know I will get flamed for this, but it is a fact.

IF you are driving on city streets in such a way that you are constantly engaging the traction control (on dry pavement) then you dont know how to drive OR you are a hazard and should have your license revoked.
YES I know there will be some who say "Every time I make this ONE left hand turn....BLAH BLAH" YES I know that there are particular situations that confuse our systems, but those are the rare exceptions.

So IF you feel like you need to always disable the safety systems because they are engaging, then learn how to drive the car.

One prime example is watching people at the racetrack or even the go-cart track.
Lousy drivers will STOMP the gas and squeel the tires on every turn and MASH the brakes and wonder why the guy driving in what appears to be a relaxed manner ALWAYS has faster lap times.

The only reason the TCS & VC systems would piss you off on the street is that you are TRYING to OVERDRIVE THE CAR for the street - Period.

Bring on the flames

TC off is the way to drive, if you need to have TC save your ass, then you don't know how to drive or control the car and should have your license revoked.

I drive TC off in rain or dry weather and have not had a single issue. That includes a 414hp M3.

TC is so sensitive and crappy on this car that I dropped 3 seconds just by dissabling it at the track.

[paulca]

Also to those who think I am refering to granny style slow driving should watch a police car cut through London traffic or on hot pursuit down a country road and watch closely how and when they change gear.

I personally love leaving boy racers behind in traffic. They can blip and rev match and brake harshly all they want, but I usually just glide past them because I am instead watching the road, identifying not only hazards, but opportunities and taking advantage. They then have to speed to catch up.

It's more about "Roadcraft" which is completely different to "track craft".