SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[7thgear]

simpleisbest's logic is pretty bang on, if you're a pro and you want to win, why would you drive a car everyone knows (now going on a few years) isn't at the top?


Sure at the local level everyone can have a good time... unless you also happen to have one of those 370z or RX8's driven by the better drivers, then your whole season will have gloomy undertones.

One question that seems to continuously receive mixed reviews is "what's easier to drive?" Some people report hopping into a 370z or RX8 and simply being able to match their Twin performance without too much effort while others end up struggling.


So another angle to this is car-matched-to-driver thing.


Furthermore the whole ES thing is also correct, if the top ES car is slowly becoming a relic, what will happen when they're all retired? How long could a demand for a low-utility roadster be sustained by anyone other than hardcore autocrosses? And in a very short time I'm sure that the prices for used ES Miatas are gonna get unreal... just like they are with the Hachi Rokus and CRXs.

An infusion via the twins doesn't sound like a bad idea at all.

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

simpleisbest's logic is pretty bang on, if you're a pro and you want to win, why would you drive a car everyone knows (now going on a few years) isn't at the top?

My issue with that logic is that very, very few people are pros. And the vast majority are going to run what they brung as opposed to buying a car because its the fastest in its class. You're talking about making classing decisions based on a number of drivers you can count without taking your shoes off when thousands have driven in that class across the country.

I'm not saying the top drivers aren't the best way we have to gauge the potential of a car, but I don't know that it's right to make such far reaching decisions based solely on such a tiny subset.

IMO, upsetting competitive balance by moving cars between classes ultimately does more to hurt the sport than a fun new car being an underdog. Imagine if you did buy a car because it was the best in its class, and then a very popular new car was moved to your class and started winning it all the time. That would be pretty incredibly frustrating.

...but if you're going to do it, a 20 year old car would probably be the one to displace. Unless it's the most popular car in your sport. I'm playing devil's advocate against myself and getting nowhere. This is a pretty sticky situation and inaction is going to be the easiest way to go.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by qoncept

My issue with that logic is that very, very few people are pros. And the vast majority are going to run what they brung as opposed to buying a car because its the fastest in its class.

while I don't disagree on the whole... you are assuming that skill doesn't scale down equally.

That is, if you and me are of the same scrub-level skill, that you driving a car that is inherently better won't somehow show up in the results.


furthermore, it is generally easier for a novice, after being taught race theory basics, to do better in a car with power (slow in fast out) than a car that requires a bit more aggression for proper speed and RPM maintenance. Especially one such as the FRS, that bogs noticably below 5k in stock form.

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

while I don't disagree on the whole... you are assuming that skill doesn't scale down equally.

That is, if you and me are of the same scrub-level skill, that you driving a car that is inherently better won't somehow show up in the results.

I don't know what I'm saying :P Basically just that things are close enough now and that the impact of a move would be great enough that, whatever the right answer is, I doubt we'll move. And I make no claim that I have any special insight or reason, just a feeling.

furthermore, it is generally easier for a novice, after being taught race theory basics, to do better in a car with power (slow in fast out) than a car that requires a bit more aggression for proper speed and RPM maintenance. Especially one such as the FRS, that bogs noticably below 5k in stock form.

You know, I don't know what to make of my personal experience, but it doesn't jive with that. IMO my BRZ is far easier to drive fast than my WRX was. I don't know if its weight, drive wheels, balance or just experience but I went from feeling like a terrible driver to feeling pretty decent just by getting in a different car.

[mla163]

Looking at the results from both courses in ES, the twins are a good bit quicker on both courses. Looks like the miatae and twins would not play well together unfortunately.

Maybe bumping the Z out of the class is the way to go. 330hp and 9" wheels does not match up with 200 hp and 7" wheels. Bump the Z to BS and it would still compete.

[vroom4]

Originally Posted by qoncept

You know, I don't know what to make of my personal experience, but it doesn't jive with that. IMO my BRZ is far easier to drive fast than my WRX was. I don't know if its weight, drive wheels, balance or just experience but I went from feeling like a terrible driver to feeling pretty decent just by getting in a different car.

Ever single person who has driven or ridden in my car has commented how incredibly easy it seems to drive.

[TRev]

Originally Posted by mla163

330hp and 9" wheels does not match up...

19x10 rears

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by TRev

19x10 rears

which could be downsized to 18x10!

[totopo]

A lot of people here end up sounding like whiney bullies. Why do the twins deserve to be the competetive car in a class? Why do you want to go rain on others peoples fun?

So does the 2016 miata now also deserve to be the top of the class when it comes out? If there's a new s2000 does it deserve to be the top of its class? When the new z comes out does it deserve to be the top of its class?

[Rampage]

Twins would have taken 2-4 in ES. They would have beaten the best Miata. That will not fly well with those guys if a move is proposed.

Best to make all the 370Zs pull a tire trailer next year.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by totopo

Why do the twins deserve to be the competetive car in a class?

because PAX and classes exist to take the car out of the equation


if a car is not competitive in a class then it has to be moved, this isn't a matter of whining, it's a matter of protocol


the end-goal of the PAX + Class system is to not have any cars that are advantageous in any given class, or try it's very best to minimize any disparity in potential.

ES is most likely a stretch, but it still has to be on the table and up for discussion.

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

because PAX and classes exist to take the car out of the equation


if a car is not competitive in a class then it has to be moved, this isn't a matter of whining, it's a matter of protocol


the end-goal of the PAX + Class system is to not have any cars that are advantageous in any given class, or try it's very best to minimize any disparity in potential.

ES is most likely a stretch, but it still has to be on the table and up for discussion.

Not every car can be classed into a competitive class, it just doesn't work that way.

[mla163]

Originally Posted by totopo

A lot of people here end up sounding like whiney bullies. Why do the twins deserve to be the competetive car in a class? Why do you want to go rain on others peoples fun?

So does the 2016 miata now also deserve to be the top of the class when it comes out? If there's a new s2000 does it deserve to be the top of its class? When the new z comes out does it deserve to be the top of its class?

I think ANY car deserves a competitive home in a street class if:

• It is popular
• It is readily available
• It handles well out of the box
• It is durable enough to hold up as a solo car

I am not looking for an I class, just parity. Based on the results from Nationals - it looks like the Z is the better car.



Ideally, a perfect class would be one where you can run one of 3-4 cars and still have a potential to win. That's the case in a few classes, but not all of them. I don't think anyone would run a FRS in CS next year if they didn't have a chance of a top 5 finish.

[vroom4]

Ok, we combine GS and HS, move the focus and fiesta ST into DS, create JS for the twins on their own. DONE