SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[vroom4]

Originally Posted by Kido1986

This bar- http://www.revworksinc.com/Hotchkis-...R-S_p_672.html

It's 170% stiffer on soft than stock, Strano's is 85%. And it's not one of those crap Japanese manufacturer calling 70% as 170%, it's a legit increase of 170%. It's meant to be paired with their rear bar.

Ive just driven with oem, then strano, and then a week later the hotchkis on full stiff...those numbers arent accurate. OEM to strano was not a massive difference, so that makes sense, but strano to hotckis full stiff is barely any difference. Id say if strano is 85%, hotchkis full stiff is probably 100%. Not that I put much credit in those numbers anyway or what they mean in relation to rear grip.

[AustinTX]

I use the Perrin 19mm - 72% on stiff and 25% on soft. I've been running the 72% setting, and it's been pretty good. Still understeers, though.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

your mind set is incorrect and it looks like it's time for you to aquire a proper datalogger.




an analysis of your day's worth of runs will show you whether you're driving the car to its maximum potential. In fact, some things can jump at you quite quickly.

Even the days when I do well (finish top 10 overall pax), a post-analysis reveals that had I put together the best sectionals together in one magic run, I would have been 1.5-2s faster! And even if you account a 50% penalty on the theoreticals (since statistically some sections would be faster because the previous was done slower but better, etc), then that's still a 0.7-1s potential over my base time... which in most cases would have been enough to take the event.


therefore, unless you can provide data logs that show that your fastest run is faster all your runs at every single section and your at peak lat and long gs all the way around, then you'll always have time to find.


furthermore, putting your logger into others' cars will also open up your eyes quite a bit.


there's a guy that I race with, who drives a brz, when we combine the best of both of our driving styles our theoreticals are 2-3s faster!! on a 60s course!!




check out my thread
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70598


particularly post #11, and you'll see how even on my fastest run that landed me 4th overall pax... I believe I had potential to go faster, there's easly 1s in there getting lost.

I think we might disagree on data logging autox runs. This would work for track days with multiple session but not for autox IMO. The layout is different and there is simply not enough time between runs to analyze the data and begin figuring out where to go faster or slower. There are a ton of variables involved in looking at data. Simply not for me as it would ruin the experience. But hey these are just my opinions.

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

Really? I can see at least a handful of places where he was 3ft or more off the the cone he was trying to apex and more than a few places where he entered too fast and pushed off the line he was trying to make. It may or may not add up to .9sec, hard to tell from video since you have no idea on the limits of the car, but each of those times he gets off the line is adding up.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't by any means call the run sloppy or bad and I am definitely not saying that I could do better, but saying that there is no way to take a second off that run is just plain false.

Maybe I should correct my statement. With two perfect runs, I don't think the BRZ would win on that course. It was a fast event which needed straight up POWER. Banging the limiter also doesn't help lol. Chris Pax'ed somewhere in the 50 range out of 160, I was somewhere in the 60 range. Our region has a lot of powerful cars on hoosiers that straight up own the courses as they are driven by excellent drivers. Here you will very rarely see a "x" street car pax high.

Originally Posted by AustinTX

People can get lost in data. The best thing for one is not the best for another. Codrive with a fast guy and attempt to emulate that

I agree

Originally Posted by jdrxb9

No offense to Chris, but I'd put us about on par and 1.6% off our typical performances would be very unlikely to nab a trophy at a national event.

To Laloosh - sorry, but I agree with Dylan/et.al. that you might be surprised how much more quickly your car could do that course. Judging by your general lack of wheel inputs, it does not look like you have both ends of the car continuously balanced at the traction limit. It reminds me a lot of the video comparison I was able to do a while back with Sam Strano - see the videos in the post here.

r,
John

PS: Good luck to everyone headed out to Lincoln! After supporting RT for a couple years, it feels a bit odd to miss the first year of 'jacket' street, but seeing all the CS entries is cool and I'll be following the results closely.

No offense taken at all.

Originally Posted by 7thgear

all true


but my treatise started in response to the dude saying, in not so many words that "there's no way in hell this car can go faster, I'm absolutely sure of it"

and for that particular driver, data is the next step in self discovery, because if he felt there was more in him, he wouldn't have said that there isn't... gnomesane?

Didn't quite say what you quote me on. Data might be your next step, however for the reasons I listed above, I am against it. I kinda have the "shut up and drive the damn thing" attitude

Originally Posted by engee

At Laloosh defense, I ran there that day as well. The lot was just resealed that week and the pavement was harsh. Because the lot was just resealed that week and not yet cured, I wouldn't necessarily say that the data would be that useful. Just my 0.02 cents though.

I personally was having a ton of issues with understeer and push. Laloosh drove very well that day considering that his car is not fully prepped yet. There's always gonna be more time out there though. It's just a matter of finding it.

I do have a question for you CS guys though. After the most recent event, my car felt absolutely atrocious (pushed like a pig). I think I'm running too big of a front bar (whiteline 22mm adjustable on full soft). Been thinking about changing to 20mm whiteline adjustable. Anybody here have experience with that bar and how did it feel?

Thanks for the input in advance!

Nice running with you again Leo. I will be at the next two MSNE events, if you decided to go we should def swap rides for a run or two. I'm on the stock bar and still think the car pushes and gets sort of snappy for no reason. IMO the car needs more front end grip everywhere and needs to have the ass planted during fast transitions.

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

First, I don't think Laloosh needs to be defended. I was not critiquing his run, I was critiquing his belief that he couldn't have taken another second off his time with a perfect run. I hope he is not offended because non of what I said was meant to be malicious, just trying to state that you have to keep an open mind about the difference between a good run and a perfect run.

Second, I run the Whiteline 20mm bar on full soft and I still think it is a bit too stiff. One of the things I didn't like about it, and I am sure the 22mm could have the same problem, is that the bar didn't come very symmetrical. It appears to be a problem with a lot of bars and I am not sure it really affects anythings as long as you adjust the end links with the full weight on the car.

Once again, nobody was offended, nobody needs to be defended, no need to get any panties in a bunch here fellas. Just sharing experiences and results and best of luck to all the guys running at Lincoln

[xwd]

So in the end everyone is running a different front bar and thinks differently about it. Sounds about par for the course on mods

FWIW I went from the Strano bar (which seems to be making the rounds now) to the WL 20MM. I have been running it on full stiff and thought it was a tad stiffer than the Strano but have been meaning to try it mixed and full soft to see how it goes. I've never had clunking problems with any bar as long as the nuts were tightened enough.

[vroom4]

You guys should try to drive the car with no front bar, it feels SO FAST, but I was a full 2 seconds off my normal pace haha.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by Laloosh

I think we might disagree on data logging autox runs. This would work for track days with multiple session but not for autox IMO. The layout is different and there is simply not enough time between runs to analyze the data and begin figuring out where to go faster or slower. There are a ton of variables involved in looking at data. Simply not for me as it would ruin the experience. But hey these are just my opinions.

Didn't quite say what you quote me on. Data might be your next step, however for the reasons I listed above, I am against it. I kinda have the "shut up and drive the damn thing" attitude

honestly, I really don't understand whether people are intentionally misinterpreting what I'm writing or if I'm simply not writing it clearly enough...


data does not have to be used on the fly to be effective. Just like you don't have to be writing a textbook in order to read it....


you can shut up and drive... for many events, seasons, years, slowly gaining experience


or you can load up the data when you get home (same as you would process your go-pro footage), and run a very quick analysis (less than 10 minutes once you know what to look for) and easily identify sections where you were not driving optimally


especially given that the FRS/BRZ gives you high-frequency sensor input from steering input, throttle position and brake pressure.... not less than a decade ago a racer would have had to spend thousands of dollars on installing and hooking up sensors to read all that jazz. Modern cars are actually very remarkable in this regard.




once you identify areas where you were not optimal, you make a mental note of this, and the next time you're out there you try something different, because now you actually know exactly what you did and how to make it differently


and I HIGHLY disagree that this "only works at the track", because as varying an autocross is, you have a basic set of elements that simply vary in length and size.


A hairpin is still a hairpin.
A type 1 corner is still a type 1 corner
A type 2 corner is still a type 2 corner
A decreasing radius turn is still a decreasing radius turn
A slalom is still a slalom


analyzing the data when you get home will bring insight into how you handle all of these elements, regardless of how they're spaced or how fast you go.


if you don't want to bother with all this, that's fine


but saying that the car can't go faster with the ONLY proof is your relative position to some other driver is rubbish.


even experienced drivers have bad days, or days when they just haven't figured it out or missed some key element.... maybe a very specific element that YOU actually figured out a long time ago and just took it for granted.






anyway


do what you want




but please don't think of these things as "opinions". This a science. A tool.


You cannot question the existence of a hammer. It exists. And if you choose to use your hand to jam a nail into the wall then that is your choice... but the hammer is there should you ever want to give a swing.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

honestly, I really don't understand whether people are intentionally misinterpreting what I'm writing or if I'm simply not writing it clearly enough...

Everybody understands what you are writing. What you do not understand is that there are different opinions and paths to goals. Dataloging is yours, not mine.

Originally Posted by 7thgear

data does not have to be used on the fly to be effective. Just like you don't have to be writing a textbook in order to read it....

And IMO looking at it 2 days later when I get home defeats the purpose of it. As I will never been on that exact same course, in the same conditions ever again.

Originally Posted by 7thgear

you can shut up and drive... for many events, seasons, years, slowly gaining experience


or you can load up the data when you get home (same as you would process your go-pro footage), and run a very quick analysis (less than 10 minutes once you know what to look for) and easily identify sections where you were not driving optimally

And what will that do for the next event where I don't know what the max is if the max changed because out conditions that you can't datalog. One would be Tire temps or pressures. The other would be rubber being laid down as the event continues. Another would be a quick rerun, or a long pause btwn runs. Like I said there are simply to many variables that you cannot account for.


especially given that the FRS/BRZ gives you high-frequency sensor input from steering input, throttle position and brake pressure.... not less than a decade ago a racer would have had to spend thousands of dollars on installing and hooking up sensors to read all that jazz. Modern cars are actually very remarkable in this regard.


once you identify areas where you were not optimal, you make a mental note of this, and the next time you're out there you try something different, because now you actually know exactly what you did and how to make it differently


and I HIGHLY disagree that this "only works at the track", because as varying an autocross is, you have a basic set of elements that simply vary in length and size.


A hairpin is still a hairpin.
A type 1 corner is still a type 1 corner
A type 2 corner is still a type 2 corner
A decreasing radius turn is still a decreasing radius turn
A slalom is still a slalom


analyzing the data when you get home will bring insight into how you handle all of these elements, regardless of how they're spaced or how fast you go.


if you don't want to bother with all this, that's fine


but saying that the car can't go faster with the ONLY proof is your relative position to some other driver is rubbish.


even experienced drivers have bad days, or days when they just haven't figured it out or missed some key element.... maybe a very specific element that YOU actually figured out a long time ago and just took it for granted.






anyway


do what you want




but please don't think of these things as "opinions". This a science. A tool.


You cannot question the existence of a hammer. It exists. And if you choose to use your hand to jam a nail into the wall then that is your choice... but the hammer is there should you ever want to give a swing.

Nobody here is questioning science vs opinion. What you seem to be questioning is why people don't agree with your style, and that is all on you to figure out. As for data logging this is why I don't and won't be doing it. Data Logging will not be useful for the next event where I don't know what the max is if the max changed because the conditions that you can't data log changed. One would be Tire temps or pressures. The other would be rubber being laid down as the event continues. Another would be a quick rerun, or a long pause btwn runs. Cambered and off-cambered sections of the course. There are many others. So by all of the above, a hairpin is not a hairpin ect ect. Like I said there are simply too many variables that you cannot account for. Please, nobody is telling you to stop data logging, so don't tell anyone that they are wrong by not doing it.

[Sccabrz192]

The reason responses to your posts are so argumentative is because you post like you are speaking gospel. Like your way is the only way that works to drop time in significant chunks. It's just not fact, so stop spewing it like it is. Datalogging is A method, not the only method, and not an easy one to just jump right in to, not to mention most systems worth a damn take a fair bit of investment. You made your point that if he feels that he can't get more out of the car, then using data is A way to get over the current plateau, not sure why this argument has dragged on this long....

probably because everyone is biding time to nationals as already mentioned

[engee]

Originally Posted by Laloosh

Nice running with you again Leo. I will be at the next two MSNE events, if you decided to go we should def swap rides for a run or two. I'm on the stock bar and still think the car pushes and gets sort of snappy for no reason. IMO the car needs more front end grip everywhere and needs to have the ass planted during fast transitions.

I'll probably be at those too. I wouldn't mind swapping rides. If anything that would give me some more motivation to swap my stock swaybar back on.

[TrqlessWonder]

Originally Posted by qoncept

I have the 22mm Whiteline bar too, and I think it was just a bit too big when I was on race tires. Now that I'm on street tires I definitely want to try a smaller bar. I doubt I'll go with Whiteline again, though.

I switched my whiteline 20 to the soft setting for this last event I did. Fair warning, this is still hoosier info, but the problem I was having on the firm setting was that the car just would not brake and turn at the same time. No problems braking, no real problems turning, but trying to do both at the same time got me almost none of either. If I made that mistake, and didn't want to plow through that cone wall, I'd have to get off the brakes and *poing* the front end would finally grab.

Switched to the soft setting. That problem went away. A little more likelihood of exit oversteer than before, but certainly manageable. Being able to turn in while still trimming speed is a handy ability to have.

[TrqlessWonder]

Originally Posted by qoncept

Just the sentiment that the 20mm Whiteline bar is still too stiff more than anything.

I have had a pretty miserable experience with the 22mm bar - clunking that I've spent probably 30 hours to date trying to resolve, and have multiple times, but it keeps coming back for a different reason. But I don't have any delusions that another brand will be any better. Just crossing my fingers. I think I'll probably go with Strano.

More on my struggle here.. I have a clunk AGAIN, but it may be a loose plastic undertray or my exhaust. Sigh.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...07#post1786807

I've had clunking with the 20mm as well. Usually happens after hitting a pavement change too quickly, usually requires both front wheels to go and hit the bump stops. For me, the bar is just reaching the subframe, and I get the huge "whack" and then I get to hear the regular rattling/clunking immediately thereafter. For whatever reason, even though the endlink nuts are nylocked, they are backing off, which is where that clunk comes from. Yank the wheels, tighten the endlinks again, and noise goes back away. That's what is happening with mine at least. I'm pretty sure the long term solution is to get the next length up end link barrel to keep the bar from whacking the subframe (I'm out of adjustment with the current ones). There were some packing/shipping issues with my bar (they left out the endlinks and hurry-shipped a set later) so I may not have gotten the right endlinks in the first place. A possibility. YMMV.

[vroom4]

I think eventually Ill chop my OEM links and reweld. Is there any consequence of different length links as long as it doesnt inhibit travel?

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by TrqlessWonder

I've had clunking with the 20mm as well. Usually happens after hitting a pavement change too quickly, usually requires both front wheels to go and hit the bump stops. For me, the bar is just reaching the subframe, and I get the huge "whack" and then I get to hear the regular rattling/clunking immediately thereafter. For whatever reason, even though the endlink nuts are nylocked, they are backing off, which is where that clunk comes from. Yank the wheels, tighten the endlinks again, and noise goes back away. That's what is happening with mine at least. I'm pretty sure the long term solution is to get the next length up end link barrel to keep the bar from whacking the subframe (I'm out of adjustment with the current ones). There were some packing/shipping issues with my bar (they left out the endlinks and hurry-shipped a set later) so I may not have gotten the right endlinks in the first place. A possibility. YMMV.

I didn't pull the wheels off last time I briefly looked, but I did feel around and the endlinks didn't seem loose. I guess I DO need to pull the wheel off and get a better look.

But the last thing I found was a plastic tray under the car loose. I'm going to need a shrink if I don't stop hearing clunks.

[qoncept]

Originally Posted by vroom4

I think eventually Ill chop my OEM links and reweld. Is there any consequence of different length links as long as it doesnt inhibit travel?

(Assuming you have a symmetrical bar) you'll have preload. If you can modify the endlinks you can get them the same length :P

I think my next clunk searching step is figuring out where I threw my modified stock endlinks and trying them.