Struggling to drive a stick transmission. Help

[Akari]

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

Ah, trucks.. Yeah, never owned one of those yet.

I think the issue isn't so widespread as you think though. Even if 50% of vehicles do have a foot-operated parking brake, only 6.5% of vehicles in the USA are sold with a manual transmission. Most likely a larger percentage than that 50% also have a handbrake.. So we're probably talking like 1-2% of available vehicles.

We're also only talking about manuals, automatics have no place in this conversation. Ford, GM, Dodge, Mercedes, Kia, Toyota and have all offered manuals with foot operated parking brakes. Many of the newer vehicles are going to parking brake buttons which also don't allow for easy operation on hills.

I've easily driven 50+ manuals without a handbrake in the short time I've been driving. The fact is you cannot rely on every manual you get in having a fully operational handbrake and it's very easy to start on a hill without one. Anyone who thinks it isn't really just proves my point that they need to practice this.

[shiumai]

Originally Posted by paulca

Sorry, but coming from a country that only drives manuals (except for about 1% autos), using the handbrake on a hill IS the RIGHT way.

what's the actual % of auto vs manual at the moment? for new cars sold, it's about 25% according to this article:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/in...manual-gearbox

anyways, i learned to drive on a manual more than 30 years ago and had my first AT last year with the BRZ. in my previous car (1978 datsun 280Z), the parking brake wasn't that good, so i used the heel/toe technique for starting on hills.

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Countries that require a manual transmission specific license instruct you to use the handbrake to do a hill start.

http://www.learners-guide.co.uk/less...-and-stopping/
http://www.firstcar.co.uk/learning/d...es-hill-start/


Sure you can certainly set off from a hill without a handbrake (no better test than SF hills ) but using the handbrake is the 'proper' way to do it.

Not to mention that holding yourself stationary by slipping the clutch is generally considered terrible practice and is probably one of most abusive things you can do to your car which a lot of people still fail at evidently.



Edit: If your handbrake cannot hold your car on a hill then it is not in good repair and is a danger on the road, plain and simple. Here's a handful of results from google:
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...4090515AAigkJG
http://www.ehow.com/facts_7457996_te...quirement.html
http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/...nspection.html
http://massvehiclecheck.state.ma.us/...s/11SPRING.pdf
http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/forums...rake-what-now-!

Slipping the clutch? Nah, I meant balancing and not slipping it in an out like a noob.

Yes, I am aware that is how it is taught and tested. However, considering how much people suck at driving MT, I wouldn't be surprised since the handbrake hill start is the easiest way to do it.

[Ubersuber]

Originally Posted by Akari

We're also only talking about manuals, automatics have no place in this conversation. Ford, GM, Dodge, Mercedes, Kia, Toyota and have all offered manuals with foot operated parking brakes. Many of the newer vehicles are going to parking brake buttons which also don't allow for easy operation on hills.

I've easily driven 50+ manuals without a handbrake in the short time I've been driving. The fact is you cannot rely on every manual you get in having a fully operational handbrake and it's very easy to start on a hill without one. Anyone who thinks it isn't really just proves my point that they need to practice this.

Parking brake buttons are electronically controlled, they release when you press the gas pedal (with automatics anyway, maybe the clutch has to be operated as well if manual transmission is fitted).

[Ubersuber]

Originally Posted by asdf

learn to get used to feeling where the clutch grabs... don't need handbrake...

You do if the hill is steep enough or you're trying to park.

A handbrake start is an essential driving skill which every driver should know how to do.

[paulca]

Originally Posted by Akari

Half the vehicles in the US only have a foot operated parking brake, which would make this task impossible. Not knowing how to start on a hill without a hand brake will leave anyone in the country in very bad place eventually. I'm unsure what your country's requirements are for having a handbrake but there are none that I'm aware of in the US. Out of the three manuals that I own, only one has a handbrake.

It's actually much easier to do once you get used to it.

Never seen a manual without a handbrake. Okay I have seen ones with electronic handbrakes, but they either have a button to push or they are automatic and will automatically put the handbrake on when you stop and release it as soon as you move off. In the UK your handbrake is required, or a device that does the job of a handbrake and it is tested yearly in your MOT and must meet both strength and symmetry deviation tests, both when on and when off (ie. minimal and symmetrical brake drag).

On topic.... In context of the OP, who is just learning to drive a manual. Regardless of who thinks what is "cool" and the "hip" and "Im a great skilled driver"... The handbrake is the easiest way to learn, the safest way to learn and considered in most places to be the correct way. So it should IMHO be the recommended method to that audience and it seems what the OP's current instructor has been teaching him. Which is good.

As a learner I would also include short hill holds and slow, clutch slipping maneuvering on hills as good practice. Clutch wear is clutch wear.

If you can't smell it burning yet, you will NOT wreck your clutch in an afternoon!

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by Ubersuber

You do if the hill is steep enough or you're trying to park.

No, learn to drive, like not having the back end loose on the streets.

Originally Posted by Ubersuber

A handbrake start is an essential driving skill which every driver should know how to do.

Yes, are you saying the people that can do this can't do a handbrake start? lol.

[paulca]

Originally Posted by shiumai

what's the actual % of auto vs manual at the moment? for new cars sold, it's about 25% according to this article:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/in...manual-gearbox

Interesting. I think there are two groups. Those who don't care and therefore will basically take what the car manufacturers are selling as the "next best thing", like electronic autos and hybrids with CVT. Then there are those that do care, but opt for an auto because it has a "flappy paddle" and can live without a clutch. Personally, if the auto GT86 had a clutch and a way to go full manual I would have seriously considered it. Having never driven an auto car in my life I can't really give a balanced opinion on if I'd like an auto or hate it.

Originally Posted by shiumai

anyways, i learned to drive on a manual more than 30 years ago and had my first AT last year with the BRZ. in my previous car (1978 datsun 280Z), the parking brake wasn't that good, so i used the heel/toe technique for starting on hills.

Heavier flywheels in older cars probably helps. The best are diesels. I learnt to drive in a Renault Clio 1.5 diesel. All "maneuvers" were done with your right foot off the throttle completely. Even the "left hand reverse" maneuver uphill or 3 point turn on a hill. The thing just pushed back if you tried to stall it. You could stall it, but you really had to try hard. The instructor showed me a trick of putting the car into 5th and lifting the clutch very slowly, no throttle and have it slowly accelerate up to 30mph and sit there at 30mph with no throttle at idle. The down side was when you forgot to downshift while braking, suddenly at 1,000rpm it would start to push back against the brakes and you feel like you were accelerating again.

[n2oinferno]

Originally Posted by shiumai

what's the actual % of auto vs manual at the moment? for new cars sold, it's about 25% according to this article:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/in...manual-gearbox

anyways, i learned to drive on a manual more than 30 years ago and had my first AT last year with the BRZ. in my previous car (1978 datsun 280Z), the parking brake wasn't that good, so i used the heel/toe technique for starting on hills.

That article is from the UK where manual transmissions are more popular. Like I said before, take rate in the USA is about 6.5%.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Akari

We're also only talking about manuals, automatics have no place in this conversation. Ford, GM, Dodge, Mercedes, Kia, Toyota and have all offered manuals with foot operated parking brakes. Many of the newer vehicles are going to parking brake buttons which also don't allow for easy operation on hills.

I've easily driven 50+ manuals without a handbrake in the short time I've been driving. The fact is you cannot rely on every manual you get in having a fully operational handbrake and it's very easy to start on a hill without one. Anyone who thinks it isn't really just proves my point that they need to practice this.

As long as it can hold the vehicle on a hill and be released via hand with two feet completely on the gas and clutch it works. I have a feeling that we're getting caught up in the 'hand' part of the handbrake, every vehicle I've driven has the emergency/parking/handbrake released via your hand operating some mechanism, perfectly adequate for use during a hill start.

I'd like to see a picture of the truck you claim couldn't use it's parking brake for a hill start.

Originally Posted by s2d4

Slipping the clutch? Nah, I meant balancing and not slipping it in an out like a noob.

Could you describe it to me?

From what I can tell you've got one foot on the clutch partially engaged and one foot on the gas to keep yourself stationary on a hill. Am I wrong?

Sounds horrific for clutch wear if it is, I wouldn't let you touch my car with a ten foot pole, let alone give advice to others...

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Could you describe it to me?

From what I can tell you've got one foot on the clutch partially engaged and one foot on the gas to keep yourself stationary on a hill. Am I wrong?

Sounds horrific for clutch wear if it is, I wouldn't let you touch my car with a ten foot pole, let alone give advice to others...

It is right at the engagement point, no foot movement.

Horrific for clutch wear? at 900rpm? on light load? What is your basis of this?

That's fine, I don't need to touch your car nor have I ever had to change a clutch yet, even on the ones that I've kept for more than 10 years now.

At the end of the day, it's a consumable item that protects your gearbox.

[swpbrz]

Hmmm I think you've been misinformed young man. No keys to my car either. Let me guess you redlined through the break in period too?

[cycleboy]

1. I didn't read the entire thread or any of the others on how to drive a stick. I learned on a stick almost 30 yrs ago. It was a '63 Bug, we went to a parking lot and I stalled and made jumpy starts for an hour or more. The best thing Dad told me was something like, "gas and clutch should move in opposite directions".

2. I had the Bug for a few years, then got a 4 spd '73 2002, then a 5 spd Mazda truck, then went to an auto Xterra for 15 yrs. I was tired of the lack of interaction, so my FR-S had to be a stick. So out of the 5 cars I've had, 4 were manual but the 30 yrs or so was half on an auto (the Xterra is a great truck!).

3. I have only very rarely used the e-brake for hill starts. Just put it in neutral and stay on the brake, then when green, go! This includes driving the FR-S in the Bay Area on very steep hills last summer. I had a bigger issue seeing over the lip of the hill where I was going than getting the car underway

It is really about feeling with your right hand and feet what the clutch and engine are doing. When the clutch starts to grab, the RPM want to drop because you are taking a moving part (engine) and mating it to a stationary part (wheels) by using the clutch and tranny. Feeling that drop and adding gas to compensate is what getting started is all about. It may require some slip of the clutch if the matching of engine rpm/wheel rotation isn't perfect. In my experience this slippage here and there is not going to ruin or seriously shorten the life of the clutch parts. (I've never had a clutch have to be replaced prematurely.)

If you are learning, turn your tunes off, go slow, focus on what you hear and feel from the car.

Once you have it down smoothly, it's easy! I agree with others who said if you want a stick, get the stick! Don't compromise on a vehicle because of a skill you don't have yet but can develop.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by s2d4

Horrific for clutch wear? at 900rpm? on light load? What is your basis of this?

That's fine, I don't need to touch your car nor have I ever had to change a clutch yet, even on the ones that I've kept for more than 10 years now.

At the end of the day, it's a consumable item that protects your gearbox.

Guess it depends on duration, you're absolutely right, the clutch is a wear item designed to be replaced. How many miles have you put on a single clutch out of curiosity?

Best of luck with your car.