Transmission fluid swap?

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

So under hard use, the Pennzoil Synchromesh wouldn't hold up in those as well even though it has a neat way of stretching itself thin.

Once again, I'm showing my Honda heritage. Honda's original MTF formula was terrific and held up to heat quite well but then they went ahead and changed the formula (to the green label) and it's even thinner and more susceptible to heat. This is why we race with the Pennzoil, it actually holds up better under the stresses of racing. But to your point... that is racing where the transmission fluid gets changed every 3 race weekends. (about 3-4 times a year). I find that is so close in quality to the original Honda MTF that I would have NO worries about using it in a daily driven Honda.

Good info on the Pennzoil:
http://www.stealth316.com/2-pennzoil-synchromesh.htm

Pennzoil-Quaker State Synchromesh is a unique transmission and transaxle fluid that is not API "GL" rated. It has an approximate gear oil grade of about SAE 80W and can be used when temperatures range from -40ºF (-40ºC) to 300ºF (150ºC). According to Pennzoil's product description it is "formulated with high quality paraffinic base stocks, a fluidity modifier, multifunctional performance additives, corrosion inhibitors, a foam suppressor and a shear stable viscosity index improver additive. It provides excellent oxidation stability, low temperature performance, excellent synchronizer performance and compatibility with yellow metals, such as bronze, brass and copper components found in manual transaxles and transmissions." This description makes Synchromesh suitable for use in some transaxles or transmissions where GL-4 gear oils are specified.

A post on the message board at www.oilanalysis.com found Synchromesh to consist of a 5W30 non-detergent oil with a friction modifer and an EP (extreme pressure) additive. It is made under contract for General Motors by Pennzoil (APC 3378) or by Texaco (Code 1874 MTX Fluid).

I found it works in high heat very well, but I don't leave it the race car for the whole season. Every few events it gets changed with the motor oil.

Originally Posted by Bristecom

Well, here's the thing. Where were you guys able to find synthetic transmission oils that were actually designed to meet that transmission's requirements?

1: not only are the Mitsu boxes different from the Honda boxes but even the Honda B-series boxes aren't like the Honda D-series boxes. That's why I was relating D-series specifics. The fact that synthetic oil will cause premature wear on the engagement teeth on the gear collar is a direct result of inadequate friction between the synchro and gear. This unique situation with Syn in D-Boxes could be tolerances or "other" but it is the reality. This isn't a fluke, it's common knowledge in the racing community. Honda Challenge, SCCA, Conference, etc. No Syn in D-box is a non-negotiable.

2: Amsoil Synchromesh says right on the darn bottle: Applicable in Honda transmissions:

Originally Posted by Amsoil Synchromesh

APPLICATIONS
Recommended for automotive and light-truck applications that require synchromesh transmission fluid. Applications include manual transmissions and transaxles such as New Venture NV T350, NV 1500, NV 2550, NV 3500, NV 3550, NV 5600, and Tremec T4, T5, T18, T56, T176, TKO500, TKO600, TR 3450 and TR 3550. Replaces MTF-94 fluid for Land Rover, MG, and Mini Cooper. Replaces Honda Genuine MTF fluid for manual transaxles and Texaco MTX fluid.

Yet, in high heat, race conditions... CRUNCH!!

2a: Redline was contacted via Email (not me personally) and they said don't use the Redline MTL in the Honda boxes, use the MT90. Well, same result with both in D-Boxes. CRUNCH!!

3: Ok, since people here don't use Honda D-Boxes it's worth noting that if you browse the S2k boards or talk to guys who race Honda with B or K-series boxes you'll find many of them have good experiences with MT90/MTL/Amsoil, but then again others do not. It's a real crap shoot. Personally, I've instructed students at the race track who are shifting like they're trying to win the INDY 500 all the while I'm cringing in the passenger seat! Ladies and gentlemen, unless you're actually competing, don't abuse your transmission! Shift with the fingers, not with the palms.


As for wear rates and the life of the transmission, I think the breaking down of the fluid from time/heat and elongated change intervals are the biggest factors outside of shifting-like-an-allstar. The breaking down of the fluid can affect the bearings. I can drive a transmission with a "3rd gear crunch" for 100k miles (I could theoretically drive without synchros) but if a bearing craps out at 50k there's not much you can do to avoid the repair.

So Bristecom, would you agree in this approach?

Only Daily Driven: OEM fluid and treat your transmission with respect
Occasional Track days: OEM fluid and treat your transmission with respect but change fluid sooner than manual recommends.
Heavy Track use: Lab test OEM for breakdown, shear and high-heat characteristics, change often. OR Use Synthetic/Pennzoil/Torco or whatever else and change often... and treat your transmission with respect.
Racing: Use whatever fluid helps you bang through the gears the fastest to gain every 1/10th of a second possible!!

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Once again, I'm showing my Honda heritage. Honda's original MTF formula was terrific and held up to heat quite well but then they went ahead and changed the formula (to the green label) and it's even thinner and more susceptible to heat. This is why we race with the Pennzoil, it actually holds up better under the stresses of racing. But to your point... that is racing where the transmission fluid gets changed every 3 race weekends. (about 3-4 times a year). I find that is so close in quality to the original Honda MTF that I would have NO worries about using it in a daily driven Honda.

Good info on the Pennzoil:
http://www.stealth316.com/2-pennzoil-synchromesh.htm

I found it works in high heat very well, but I don't leave it the race car for the whole season. Every few events it gets changed with the motor oil.

Yeah, Synchromesh probably would be good for Hondas since they only require thinner 75W-80 weight oil. Having an approximate weight of 80 would mean it could actually protect better than Honda's MTF. And yes, I have heard Synchromesh breaks down quicker in harder conditions so changing it out more often is a good idea. But again, I have done no research on the Hondas and was only referring to Mitsubishi and the FRS/BRZ transmission with 75W-90 requirements.

1: not only are the Mitsu boxes different from the Honda boxes but even the Honda B-series boxes aren't like the Honda D-series boxes. That's why I was relating D-series specifics. The fact that synthetic oil will cause premature wear on the engagement teeth on the gear collar is a direct result of inadequate friction between the synchro and gear. This unique situation with Syn in D-Boxes could be tolerances or "other" but it is the reality. This isn't a fluke, it's common knowledge in the racing community. Honda Challenge, SCCA, Conference, etc. No Syn in D-box is a non-negotiable.

2: Amsoil Synchromesh says right on the darn bottle: Applicable in Honda transmissions:

Yet, in high heat, race conditions... CRUNCH!!

2a: Redline was contacted via Email (not me personally) and they said don't use the Redline MTL in the Honda boxes, use the MT90. Well, same result with both in D-Boxes. CRUNCH!!

3: Ok, since people here don't use Honda D-Boxes it's worth noting that if you browse the S2k boards or talk to guys who race Honda with B or K-series boxes you'll find many of them have good experiences with MT90/MTL/Amsoil, but then again others do not. It's a real crap shoot. Personally, I've instructed students at the race track who are shifting like they're trying to win the INDY 500 all the while I'm cringing in the passenger seat! Ladies and gentlemen, unless you're actually competing, don't abuse your transmission! Shift with the fingers, not with the palms.

Well, these Amsoil and Redline guys said the same crap about the Mitsubishi transmissions. "Yeah, just mix our products" or "Yeah, that should work." But we were still having problems with them. They were simply not designed specifically enough to handle everything well. I know a lot of people really like these companies but I've remained very skeptical about some of their claims.

So Bristecom, would you agree in this approach?

Only Daily Driven: OEM fluid and treat your transmission with respect
Occasional Track days: OEM fluid and treat your transmission with respect but change fluid sooner than manual recommends.
Heavy Track use: Lab test OEM for breakdown, shear and high-heat characteristics, change often. OR Use Synthetic/Pennzoil/Torco or whatever else and change often... and treat your transmission with respect.
Racing: Use whatever fluid helps you bang through the gears the fastest to gain every 1/10th of a second possible!!

Yeah, that's what I would recommend.

Originally Posted by getbent

I think the BRZ calls for a GL-3 fluid which is not even a current spec any longer. I would say that GL-4 is probably the best fit.

The manual telling us to use GL-3 oil doesn't mean Toyota is behind the times. It's because that's the level of additives the transmission was designed for. Car manufacturers spend a lot of time working with oil companies to make specific oils for their transmissions. Don't you think it'd be easier for them to just say, "Use any GL rated oil in the 75 to 90 weight range" if it were so?

A good example is to look at the Mitsubishi Evo owner's manuals. They used to always require GL-4 oils but for the Evo X, they require a new GL-3 oil! Oh no, they must be digressing backwards for some reason!

[Bristecom]

Getting the right transmission oils has almost become a pet peeve of mine because some people are so ignorant about it. For example, some dumbass on Wikipedia insists that the Evo X MR uses ATF in the transmission and keeps changing my entry. It DOESN'T! It uses a special synthetic oil made by Castrol for Mitsubishi for this specific transmission that is nothing like ATF. So people that read this info on Wikipedia and believe it are going to put ATF in their $10,000+ twin clutch transmission and totally F it up. Grr, why are people so stupid?

[TPO]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Amsoil
Torco
Old GM SM was great. Ford has one that supposed to be great too.
Redline is ok, depends on the car.. it SUCKED in the S2K IMO, felt very notchy.

GM SM is the SH!+

[s2kdrew]

I had a MY2000 Honda S2000. I had problem shifting from 1st to 2nd, will always grind no matter at what rpm, will grind once or more per week. Then I start switching tranny fluid. From amsoil, redline, Honda MTF, all of them show no different, especially winter driving(I am in Canada and yes I drive it in the snow too), the car won't shift into 2nd gear until the fluid warms up. I switch to GM SM FM at the end since I saw a lot of good write up, and I could say it is the best fluid for that tranny since the grinding is completely gone, could shift into 2nd in any temp, shift smoother than any other S2000 that my friends had(both AP1 and AP2), and the best part I had been using that fluid for over 80k and I track the car, the tranny gives me no problem. ( of course I did fluid change once or twice a year)

[Jonny Rochester]

Mostly, Toyota say GL-3 75w90 for the gear oil. But I did see one part of the Toyota repair manual that listed GL-4 or GL-5 75w85 oil (maybe a mistake). For the Lexus IS250 (similar box) Toyota list GL-5 75w90.

I know of one case where 2nd gear couldn't be selected in cold weather. I will look into using a thinner oil.

It seams like an American thing to me, saying one oil is bad and the other brand is good. It's like what football team you go for... total waste of time also. Better to talk about spec and oil thickness.

For my own cars (old T50) I use auto trans oil to thin it out, or even 100% ATF sometimes, if the syncros are worn and I think it needs this. For a customer car I'm looking for the proper solution, a GL-3 spec oil a bit thinner for winter.

However, a new car should be giving a few weeks to wear in before changing stuff.

[3lit3]

And I'll leave this here...

http://www.esotericperformance.com/blog/1/

Finally some data!

[Ian@Howtune]

Personally I don't think it makes a lot of sense to assume if oil X works well in car N that it will work in yours (unless those 2 transmissions have a lot in common).

I've been using Motul in our FR-S transmission for a few thousand miles. It never really grinds (nor did it before), however it is occasionally difficult to slide into gear.

The previous owner (a long time friend) wasn't too happy with the shifter feel so he installed Motul 300 in an attempt to make it smoother. He reported a better feel overall, but it never really resulted in 100% smooth shifting.

Now that I own the car, I really like the feel as it is. It's not buttery smooth, it's a bit notchy, but never has been particularly difficult to shift in normal or spirited driving.

FWIW, here's the frs/brz transmission oil change guide he wrote.

[Thrustin]

So, what fluid was decided upon? I read this whole thread and I have no idea what I'm even looking for, lol.

[Ray Gunnz]

How does everyone feel about this information?

Commonly available lightweight synthetic manual transmission oils:

Good match for the Aisin trans based on kinimatic viscosity and additive package...




Type

Viscosity

Popular “lightweight” Synthetic manual transmission oil -

Listed in Centestokes @ 100 degrees Centegrade

Redline MTL

(cSt@100*C 10.6)

BG Syncroshift II

(cSt@100*C 8.19) 
[as tested by Blackstone Labs]

Pentosyn MTF-2

(cSt@100*C 7.7)

Royal Purple Syncromax

(cSt@100*C 7.7)

Joe Gibbs MTF

(cSt@100*C 9.2)






Listed here are more common oils. These are thicker than those above and typically not as effective for grinds (in cold temps) but may be a good match for elevated temperatures and/or track conditions If you regularly see those:

Specialty \'\'mid weight\'\' oils:

-Redline MT-85, cSt@100*C 12.0 (we use this in our shop car. Its a good balance between a \'\'thin\'\' or \'\'standard\'\' weight gear oil. Allows for smooth shifting in colder weather, but the higher viscosity its providing film thickness as we attend many track events with our shop car.)

75w-90 weight gear oil:
By far what most cars call for. Also the standard factory GL-3 fill in the FRS, 86 and BRZ. Some specialty options:

-Redline 75w-90NS, cSt@100*C 15.6

-Motul Gear 300




Other gear oils:
AMSOIL Severe Gear and Long Life, Redline MT-90, Redline Lightweight Shockproof (not likely needed by any common FRS/BRZ owner) are going to be too thick or with the wrong additives to recommend for this trans.

Ray Gunnz
SoundGroove Records
2014 BRZ STOCK except for GReddy cold air induction.

[ATL BRZ]

FWIW I'm using Miller's Motorsport CRX 75W90 NT gear oil in my trans and diff, no noises or grinding and around 14 track days, just nice, smooth shifts. It incorporates Nanotechnology additive chemistry to significantly reduce internal frictional and power losses and outperforms other gear oils and other leading gear oils in several categories.

Here's an article from Race Car Engineering about Miller's gear oil: http://performanceracingoils.com/PDF..._the_Gears.pdf

[Ray Gunnz]

Ty friend.

[zdr93523]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

The manual telling us to use GL-3 oil doesn't mean Toyota is behind the times. It's because that's the level of additives the transmission was designed for. Car manufacturers spend a lot of time working with oil companies to make specific oils for their transmissions. Don't you think it'd be easier for them to just say, "Use any GL rated oil in the 75 to 90 weight range" if it were so?

A good example is to look at the Mitsubishi Evo owner's manuals. They used to always require GL-4 oils but for the Evo X, they require a new GL-3 oil! Oh no, they must be digressing backwards for some reason!

This is not an accurate statement or analogy. The transmission in the twins is sourced from Lexus and they have a TSB with a warning that use of fluid other than GL-5 will cause manual transmission damage. Toyota/Subaru just cheaped out on the fluid and I suspect this is why we are seeing lots of grinding issues. Subaru is notorious for this. Subaru manufactures Extra-S, which is excellent GL-5 fluid, but does not have it properly loaded in the Subaru supply system, so dealers don't stock it even though it will prevent problems in WRXs and STis and is a solid upsell. Instead, they just eat warranty repairs like the trans in my BRZ. Also, they do not specify which oil to use when they fill their engines and transmissions when new. You might get valvoline in one car, and something else in the next. It is just poor business practices, not that the trans was engineered to accept GL-3.

[evo4g63]

Anyone used Lucas gear oil?