LSx engine swap for track use, thread

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by foodman

Regarding oversteer/understeer...wouldn't this be relatively easy to sort out and fix with coilover damper tuning, spring rates, sways, etc?? ...in other words, what everyone has already been doing and experimenting on already for forever. Simple coilover tuning - I don't see why it wouldn't be the solution.

How easy that is depends upon the experience of the people who are determining what changes need to be made, and how they evaluate what the driver tells them when he reports what differences the changes have made. IOW, it's a process, and when done by competent people any understeer/oversteer issues will be resolved to the driver's satisfaction.

[mav1178]

Here's all the track times we've had so far in 86 Cup:



Frankly at this point, it's come down to driver skill more than power. Most of the Super Mod class guys are running turbo/supercharger setups, but it's really not anywhere near the power/torque of a LS swap.

My point is... what is your end goal? If it's just to be faster, there's much, MUCH better ways of doing it. But if you want to swap out the FA20 so you have a stock engine to put back in (and resell the car), then that's your money to spend (and your backwards priority to use as you see fit).

-alex

[foodman]

@mav1178:

The answer to all your "basics" has already been answered. Answer = "in general"

We are talking about an LSx swap in particular, "in general" for track use. Not me, not the driver, not a particular track. Not my goals. Not anyone's goals.

I never mentioned drifting. I never mentioned high top speed 200mph goals. I never mentioned drag racing. I only mentioned general track use. It could be any track. It can be for every single closed circuit track in the world. It could be any driver; novice and advanced.

We are also not discussing how it compares to other ways/options to go faster...if we were, then this thread can go a million different ways and that question is too vague.

I meant as a whole...as a whole car with an LSx swap.

Purely focusing on the pros and cons of an LSx FRS which many are interested in ...and nothing more.


.

[Celadrielas]

Originally Posted by Sleepless

The lateral grip is measured at a constant radius circle on a skid pad. There isn't much correlation to driving into and out if a corner. The weight transfers are dynamic vs static on the skid pad.

Note, that I'm assuming you want a superb track car that you want to drive close to 10 / 10ths. To do that it will be a lot of work and suspension tuning.

People greatly under estimate what it takes to make a powerful and great handling car. As a point of reference, I've driven with other FT86 owners that have upgraded their cars in the pursuit of improving their cars to only find they are slower or haven't improved anything.

Add to the complexity of suspension tuning a heavier engine that makes a LOT more torque and you've considerably made it more complex of a project.

If on the other hand you just want to do and interesting project to play with, then yeah, dropping in an LS is a fine project. Just don't be surprised to have a well driven stock FT86 catch you on the twisty bits!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is the theory behind HPDE within itself, though, isn't it? It is the difference between passionate as drivers and passionate about cars. And yes, you can be both. But people who are passionate drivers will drive 80 hp as best they can because it's what they've got and can handle. Improve as they can, right?

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by foodman

If anyone hasn't already read this...here:
http://www.vorshlag.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8275

They seem pretty darn competent, experienced and knowledgeable in the road race, autocross, closed-circuit, track game if you ask me

...they also only deal with quality or real competition coilovers - AST, MCS, Moton, JRZ, Bilstein, etc... Which is a good indication they're focused on and serious about track use.

I'm familiar with Vorshlag and their E36 LSx swap kit. You could certainly find a worse place to start - lots of them, in fact. Good luck with it.

[Floggin Tires]

Originally Posted by totopo

balance isn't that simple. When you mess with balance with suspension, you usually end up with decreased overall traction because of exaggerated weight shift on one end. Also balance isn't just static, depending on braking, accelerating, yaw rate it changes. There are so many factors, like corner weights, suspension geometry, roll center, alignment, lsd, that makes it really complicated.

Yup, x1000.
at foodman, Just do the damn thing.

I think you want to know the most efficient way to do so. (This Swap)
Some times you have to be the one tho figure the best path.

Do it.
If not just wait and you (and I) will see.

[scudzey]

Originally Posted by Floggin Tires

Yup, x1000.
at foodman, Just do the damn thing.

I think you want to know the most efficient way to do so. (This Swap)
Some times you have to be the one tho figure the best path.

Do it.
If not just wait and you (and I) will see.

I agree. This is something that if you have your mind set (like I do), you just need to do it. There's lots of variables with the way a car will drive, and each of them gets changed when you make a modification. This is just one of them that will most likely greatly change most of them. However, it's something I see as a challenge, both in getting the car to a suburb state with the engine in, and myself being able to drive it.

I'm a problem solver by profession, and I guess that flows into my hobbies as well. If something isn't a challenging to solve, it's not fun, so I'm looking forward to this.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by foodman

@mav1178:
Purely focusing on the pros and cons of an LSx FRS which many are interested in ...and nothing more.

But that's just it.... you want to focus only on the engine, and it brings up all the other attributes. Even in your first post you talk about suspension, wheels, aero, blah blah...

When you discuss aero, for example, you have to start a conversation about what type of driving (and whether you as a driver will benefit from aero aids or not). It isn't just a matter of "I have 350ft-lb of torque out of a V-8 and I need this much downforce to compensate with this suspension setup".. there's no set formula, everyone will do something different.

I'd still like the basic question answered: Why do you want a LS swap? What do you want out of it?

Don't worry about the pros and cons yet. Obviously you want this engine enough to ask, so flipping the script: why do you want to swap this engine instead of boosting the FA20?

The other pieces will fall into place later.

-alex

[glamcem]

[D K]

In the FD world, the lsx swaps are a pretty good idea because the rotaries are difficult to make last while making good power.

In the Miata world, they also work because the original engines are just gutless.

For us, if we can make the FA handle 500hp in a roadrace situation, what more do you really need?
A 700hp LS7?

The other thing is, how much are you gonna mod the tunnel to fit a T56 magnum?
Most likely a V8 will over hang the front axle by quite a bit..

Thats exactly what you dont want.

My $.02

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by mav1178

I'd still like the basic question answered: Why do you want a LS swap? What do you want out of it?

Don't worry about the pros and cons yet. Obviously you want this engine enough to ask, so flipping the script: why do you want to swap this engine instead of boosting the FA20?

Post #12 in this thread:

Originally Posted by foodman

Not really talking about trying to make a 650whp super dyno queen ...but having a solid, reliable, ultra low maintanence, NA and OEM STOCK engine naturally making 400-450whp from the factory....which sounds 1000000x more reliable than a problematic, high maintanence, more parts, 400whp FI FA (aka.. ticking time bomb).

A low maintanence, reliable, more simplistic, powerful NA track car will always be more desired than a high maintanence, problematic and complex FI track car.

-------

Originally Posted by D K

The other thing is, how much are you gonna mod the tunnel to fit a T56 magnum?
Most likely a V8 will over hang the front axle by quite a bit..

From post #23 in this thread:

Originally Posted by foodman

If anyone hasn't already read this...here:
http://www.vorshlag.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8275

[Celadrielas]

I'm thinking about dropping a mustang engine in mine. A p51 mustang engine.

Totally kidding........and kind of trolling. My bad

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by dradernh

Post #12 in this thread:


-------


From post #23 in this thread:

Basically the swap would have some chassis modifications. For a track car, it will be fine, but for a street car (or anyone with warranty concerns) there's no turning back once you swap.

-alex

[bimmer635csi]

Related to this (at least for customers of North Park Scion in San Antonio):

When I bought my car, the dealership included 2 years of oil changes with the purchase. I asked them "what if I no longer have the Subaru engine in the car and put a Chevrolet engine in its place?". Their response was "no problem, we will still change the oil for you".

So at least you don't have to worry about oil changes in the LSx engine until the car turns 2 years old.