How is this not an RX8?

[KatHawkDown]

Originally Posted by Wait4BRZ_STI?

My point is that BRZ/FRS is supposed to be a bargain sports car that is much less expensive than s2000, 370Z and Rx-8. But in the end, we get a price that is comparable to the Rx-8. This is perfectly fine with me since BRZ still represents a very good value and is the only true sports coupe in the market (miata is a convertible).

However, one cannot help but wonder what is the differentiating factor that makes the sales of BRZ seem so successful but the sales of RX-8 so miserable.

For me, the eccentricity of a rotary engine is probably what kills the sales of RX-8. Marketing prowess is probably another reason to the success of BRZ/FRS.

This is a good point. Depending on your state's insurance laws and year/configuration of the RX8, a very good case can be made to pick up an 8 instead of an 86. A stock base model RX8 should perform better than the 86 but will get poorer fuel economy of course. I'd venture that the driving experience between the two vehicles will be a negligible disparity.

There are multiple members of RX-8 club that have their RX-8 BELOW 2800lbs. With the standard bold-ons and a rev limit increase to 10,000RPM those cars become something special to be sure.

Originally Posted by ilikecars86

I don't know if I would agree about the interior of the BRZ. I have been in the interior of the BRZ and I think the RX-8 interior is of much better quality / use of materials. For once, the visor/mirror is not that high quality and there are some other differences that can be mentioned. However, I don't think that takes away from the driving ability of the BRZ.

As for the poor RX-8 sales, my guess would be that early engine issues plagued the car and steered people clear from the RX-8 and its MPG. But as a used car and insurance discount as a "sedan," it is still a good deal. Even though it does have more power, it comes in heavier than the BRZ.

But it still would be interesting to pit the two cars against each other.

Totally. The 8 will be a decisive step up from the 86, especially anything from '09 or later.

The philosophies of both cars are remarkably similar of course and as soon as you start departing from the stock set-ups it's anyone's game.

[Khyron686]

Up here the FR-S is priced at 25900 - the RX-8 STARTS at 42K. You're in Evo country.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by KatHawkDown

This is a good point. Depending on your state's insurance laws and year/configuration of the RX8, a very good case can be made to pick up an 8 instead of an 86. A stock base model RX8 should perform better than the 86 but will get poorer fuel economy of course. I'd venture that the driving experience between the two vehicles will be a negligible disparity.

I got a quote for an NC Miata and an RX-8. The Miata was cheaper by several hundred $$$ with full coverage. :/

[KatHawkDown]

Originally Posted by Khyron686

Up here the FR-S is priced at 25900 - the RX-8 STARTS at 42K. You're in Evo country.

I'm in Calgary. Stony trail Mazda cleared their last R3 RX8's for under $36k or less. But yes, the real value in an 8 is getting it used due to it's massive depreciation.

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

I got a quote for an NC Miata and an RX-8. The Miata was cheaper by several hundred $$$ with full coverage. :/

Haha, indeed, I did the same. It varies by state/province. Some insurer's seem to give discounts on the 8 for it's 4 doors, which is ridiculous in my opinion since the car is obviously closer to a sports car than any sedan.

In Alberta the rates evolve on vehicles according to historical statistics. So here, like there, the Miata is down right affordable to insure compared to an RX8. Given the typical Miata vs. RX8 crowds I can see why.

Ever since the speculative but likely reliable news of an N/A STi version of the 86 I have cancelled my plans to buy a base FR-S this summer. Instead I'll wait for the STi version and in the mean time buy an NC Miata. I'm currently searching for one.

[spin9k]

Originally Posted by KatHawkDown

I'm in Calgary. Stony trail Mazda cleared their last R3 RX8's for under $36k or less. But yes, the real value in an 8 is getting it used due to it's massive depreciation.

"Massive depreciation", my toenail. Take a look at Edmunds 'true cost to own' on a couple cars - I don't see anything out of the ordinary for the RX-8. Same as the Miata. (which is correctly termed an MX-5 BTW). And the majority of the 5 yrs cost delta is fuel,

vehicle - 5 yr depreiation - 5yr True cost to own*
Miata - $7,264 - $32,172
RX-8 - $7,271 - $36,823
Sub STi - $9,010 - $41,392
Audi TT - $10,045 - $39,946
Porsche Boxter - $12,318 - $47,663

* 5yr cost of buying and owning a US vehicle.

Haha, indeed, I did the same. It varies by state/province. Some insurer's seem to give discounts on the 8 for it's 4 doors, which is ridiculous in my opinion since the car is obviously closer to a sports car than any sedan.

"Ridiculous"? Sounds like envy from a 2 door owner w/high insurance rates. Four doors IS four doors, with all the benefits of any sedan.

In Alberta the rates evolve on vehicles according to historical statistics. So here, like there, the Miata is down right affordable to insure compared to an RX8. Given the typical Miata vs. RX8 crowds I can see why.

"Typical crowd"? Pray tell, who belongs to this "typical crowd" you so kindly refer to? Your profiling people based on their vehicle ownership is so grown up (or aren't you?).

Ever since the speculative but likely reliable news of an N/A STi version of the 86 I have cancelled my plans to buy a base FR-S this summer. Instead I'll wait for the STi version and in the mean time buy an NC Miata. I'm currently searching for one.

If the unknown benefits of some future STi version of the BRZ is the make or break on buying an FR-S, your buying critera/decisions is rather superficial don't you think? If the FR-S is so great, why not buy one now, and (since the depreciation will be so little, I'd imagine lol?) sell it and buy the STi version later?

[Capt Canuck]

spin9k: you're a touchy fella on the subject of the RX8 aren't you?

Please take into consideration the person you quoted is talking about the car from a Canadian (Calgary specifically) POV.

The RX8 was massively overpriced in Canada, they sat on lots until year end manufacturer rebates of $6k off MRSP was used and they would still sit. They are one of the few cars in Canada, when used, that are the same price as an equivalent US example.

If you really want to see how RX8s depreciate as if they fell off a cliff, landed on the beach, and then sank to the bottom of the ocean, take a look at what used ones go for in the UK right now... actually on second thought, please don't.

I hope you don't blow a fuse over really important things, when people don't have the same POV as you, like favorite sports team or TV show.

[spin9k]

^ just stating the facts as I can find them. That's ALL I did, not touchy at all, no mega adjectives like "massively" "fell of a cliff", "sank to the bottom" and other such which are catchy, emotional, but lack substance.... unless you can point me to those damn facts again, that is. Maybe you're right for Canada, or the UK, but sort of like a lawyer... If you can't illustrate with them facts, what have you got? Bupkis.

[70NYD]

All cars depreciate massively in the uk (well most)

[KatHawkDown]

Originally Posted by spin9k

"Massive depreciation", my toenail. Take a look at Edmunds 'true cost to own' on a couple cars - I don't see anything out of the ordinary for the RX-8. Same as the Miata. (which is correctly termed an MX-5 BTW). And the majority of the 5 yrs cost delta is fuel,

vehicle - 5 yr depreiation - 5yr True cost to own*
Miata - $7,264 - $32,172
RX-8 - $7,271 - $36,823
Sub STi - $9,010 - $41,392
Audi TT - $10,045 - $39,946
Porsche Boxter - $12,318 - $47,663

* 5yr cost of buying and owning a US vehicle.

"Ridiculous"? Sounds like envy from a 2 door owner w/high insurance rates. Four doors IS four doors, with all the benefits of any sedan.

"Typical crowd"? Pray tell, who belongs to this "typical crowd" you so kindly refer to? Your profiling people based on their vehicle ownership is so grown up (or aren't you?).

If the unknown benefits of some future STi version of the BRZ is the make or break on buying an FR-S, your buying critera/decisions is rather superficial don't you think? If the FR-S is so great, why not buy one now, and (since the depreciation will be so little, I'd imagine lol?) sell it and buy the STi version later?

Okaaaaaay. Well let me first say that my family owns one of the largest insurance brokerages in Alberta and my entire family works, or has worked there so I know a bit about how rates are determined. And...

-I'm aware that the NC is MX-5, not "Miata" but the international branding has been so difficult to displace that even Mazda executives still use the term.

-That list is inaccurate for Canada, and I would say anyone with modest negotiation skills can get an RX8 for cheaper than KBB no problem.

-As I mentioned, insurers are actually sane here, and they know the RX8 is harder, faster, more expensive to repair, and driven with more enthusiasm than an MX-5 and two extra suicide doors doesn't trick them.

-The median age of an MX-5 driver is much, much older than the RX-8 driver in Canada. This is not a stereotype it's actually statistical fact assessed by the insurance industry or consultants and market researchers who provide these statistics to them. They also have better driving records and present less risk than the typical RX-8 driver. (The fact that I'm about to buy an NC myself should manifest my regard for these stereotypes).

-I was too late to put my deposit down. I'm sure if I wanted I could get one by summer's end but I can't wait that long for new wheels and if an STi version is actually just a year or so away and I'd have to wait until late fall to get a standard car anyway, why buy one to drive through the winter while it takes it's biggest depreciation hit just to sell it shortly thereafter? Not worth it, and not smart. An NC will tie me over until the STi version comes, which I think will definitely happen.

[spin9k]

..interesting. Canada must be a very different case then, as car demographics go, as the RX-8 new wasn't cheap $28-34K, which wasn't (isn't) in the same class of cars as typical entry level economy models at $12-18K that might be the 1st purchase of young people.

As for insurance reflecting that here, my car is registered as a 4 dr sedan and costs me $75.66/mo for 250/500/100 with $500 ded collision. Not exactly outrageous. I have no idea about Miata rates.

Alternatively, here, used Miatas can be low cost rides (2k on up) and are everywhere due to higher sales numbers I would imagine. MX-5 are more expensive being newer, but used RX-8 are selling for more on average. Or at least that the sense I get from looking an sites like ebay and checking completed sales listings.

[KatHawkDown]

Originally Posted by spin9k

..interesting. Canada must be a very different case then, as car demographics go, as the RX-8 new wasn't cheap $28-34K, which wasn't (isn't) in the same class of cars as typical entry level economy models at $12-18K that might be the 1st purchase of young people.

As for insurance reflecting that here, my car is registered as a 4 dr sedan and costs me $75.66/mo for 250/500/100 with $500 ded collision. Not exactly outrageous. I have no idea about Miata rates.

Alternatively, here, used Miatas can be low cost rides (2k on up) and are everywhere due to higher sales numbers I would imagine. MX-5 are more expensive being newer, but used RX-8 are selling for more on average. Or at least that the sense I get from looking an sites like ebay and checking completed sales listings.

That is an excellent insurance rate for an RX8. I wish the four doors mattered up here in Alberta because I would rather have an RX8 than an NC Miata. For me there was about a $400 per year difference depending on the insurer, the NC being cheaper to insure. Given my needs for the car I couldn't justify the added cost of insurance AND the much higher cost of fuel. The difference in those two costs alone will pay for my wife and I to go to Hawaii every year.

[val_lixembeau]

Originally Posted by scorcherjf

I get the feeling subaru/toyota benchmarked the Porsche because they couldn't benchmark the RX8 which would've been the more logical choice since the engine is in the front unlike the Porsche. Had they chosen to go with double-wishbones up front I don't think they would've been able to hit their price target nor fit their engine inside.

I personally think the BRZ hits dead in the middle between the MX-5 and RX-8 but for marketing purposes it's pretty obvious that they want to make the link between their boxer engine and Porsche's.</br> In Canada, Mazdas are everywhere, but I get the impression from reading car forums that they are considered rather downmarket in the US and UK. If that's true, it isn't hard to see why Subaru/Toyota would rather associate their car with the Germans.

[KatHawkDown]

Originally Posted by val_lixembeau

I personally think the BRZ hits dead in the middle between the MX-5 and RX-8 but for marketing purposes it's pretty obvious that they want to make the link between their boxer engine and Porsche's.</br> In Canada, Mazdas are everywhere, but I get the impression from reading car forums that they are considered rather downmarket in the US and UK. If that's true, it isn't hard to see why Subaru/Toyota would rather associate their car with the Germans.

So true.

[SioXie101]

im still waiting for a direct comparison by any car magazine/journal between the BRZ/FRS and the now defunct but amazing RX8.