Subaru BRZ and Toyota GT86 twins: not the drifter everyone says they are

[chate]

Originally Posted by shaX 07

No, you're way wrong. Do you really want me to dig up a thread on corvette forums about MPG?

Also did you miss the part where the Z06 weighs 3,118 pounds and has 405hp and runs a 12.8 in the quarter mile, but still achieves 2-3 MPG less than a BRZ? Oh and again it DOESN'T require premium, therefor the difference is totally negligible.

No the point of a z06 is not MPG, but nor is a BRZ. and there's no way in hell a BRZ is getting 35-40 MPG on the highway. I don't care if you set the cruise to 40mph.

There are no corvettes that do not require premium. You can run it on regular, but it reduces power...and MPG, just like the BRZ/FRS will...and before you ask I own a c5, and thats why i know.

In the real world, the numbers Titus referenced are almost spot on. Yes you can get 28mpg on premium cruising at 65mph, realistically in traffic and on the street I get 18 avg..if i push it and have fun, more like 16.

[cassidy0998]

Originally Posted by MmmHamSandwich

Folks, did anyone honestly expect that a manufacturer, especially in this day and age, would purposefully produce a car with a stock suspension setup that promoted oversteer?

If you want to drift set the car up as a drift car. No car maker in their right mind would configure a car from the factory with those kinds of tendencies. Lawsuit central.

"You made the car too easy to crash." "Oh oh but we wanted it to drift well!"
Yeah that will hold up in court...

370Zs and Genesis Coupes do it right out of the box. One major factor when it comes to drifting is power, something the FR-S/BRZ is unfortunately short of.

[Dimman]

Do people realize there is a difference between controlling a drift and drifting a car? Or the difference between a 4 wheel drift and a powerslide?

[Xdragonxb0i]

thats good, i dont want a bunch assholes, trying to drift on public roads.

[Vracer111]

Originally Posted by cassidy0998

I was saying this from the get go. The numbers just don't add up, and there isn't any video of the car truly drifting. It won't be a drift car out of the box.

However...the 86 BADGE on the fender implies that the car is in a drift.

The sad fact is that it is underpowered, heavier, and more expensive than what most of us have hoped for. People are still giving into the hype and not wanting to face the truth about the true performance capabilities of this car. The same people settling for the 200hp probably would have settled for 100hp if Toybaru said that's all the car needs to be a performance machine. We must think for ourselves and not blindly agree with anything the manufacturers put in our faces telling us this is all we need.

I am a fan of the FR-S/BRZ, but I will not buy one for it to be a race car. If I was it would only be as a daily driver, a replacement of the 7th gen fwd Celica. But even then I can not justify the purchase, as it is priced too high for what you get.

Then I take it you have not seen this video?

the car is truly drifting...

The GT86 is basically the car I've been waiting for - a hardtop miata with ~200hp but with even better reflexes and ergonomics/seating position I can actually fit in (more supportive and laid out in a good track ready comfortable position - similar to how I had my 4th gen Camaro track car setup - that was the most perfect seat position ever!) I really don't care much for drifting - just want the best, most precise handling coupe available at an AFFORDABLE price. If the FRS handles better than my former '90 Integra RS that will be awesome.

That '90 Integra RS had a stock motor [probably not making much more than the stock ~130hp] with ~8lb racing flywheel and upgraded stage 1 Ebay clutch, customized intake and exhaust system with downturn, was lightened to ~2300lbs with full tank [with weight distribution shifted more towards 70F/30R], and had the suspension reworked to where on track it would keep Z06 Corvettes and Lotus Elises at bay in the turns on track. Of course it was comparatively slower when the turn ended and the track straightened out. Still was a nice daily driver if you didn't mind no interior, no A/C, and a loud exhaust: Eibach springs / Tokico Illumina adjustable were not too much firmer than stock and combined with larger Front/Rear anti-roll bars made for good stock like travel and compliance while greatly improving the lateral responsiveness (I'm a big proponent of stockish springs with better dampers and LARGE anti-roll bars). The 225/45-15 R-compound tires actually softened the ride and provided better road compliance compared to street tires and still provided more precision and grip whether dry or wet. I miss driving that car... was a true handling machine.

So if the FR-S is truly everything the reviews make it out to be (and I believe the reviews point out that it is a drivers car designed for precision handling) there is no doubt I will love it. Sure, it would have been nice if it was a few hundred lbs less, but I think the power level is fine. A 200hp/150ft-lb 4 cylinder is more than acceptable if you mate it with an excellent chassis that is not too heavy... and by all accounts the FT86 has one of the most excellent chassis's made; even if it's not quite in the 'lightweight' category. All the FR-S needs is sticky tires and better brake pads and it should be good to go!

[NemesisPrime909]

glad to read that it's not "the second coming of jesus in a drift car" that scion wants us to think it is

because while I respect those who can do it, it's simply not my taste. I will buy this car for fun. i like driving in general, add in a fun car like this, and it's a no-brainer.

[cassidy0998]

Originally Posted by Vracer111

Then I take it you have not seen this video?

the car is truly drifting...

The GT86 is basically the car I've been waiting for - a hardtop miata with ~200hp but with even better reflexes and ergonomics/seating position I can actually fit in (more supportive and laid out in a good track ready comfortable position - similar to how I had my 4th gen Camaro track car setup - that was the most perfect seat position ever!) I really don't care much for drifting - just want the best, most precise handling coupe available at an AFFORDABLE price. If the FRS handles better than my former '90 Integra RS that will be awesome.

That '90 Integra RS had a stock motor [probably not making much more than the stock ~130hp] with ~8lb racing flywheel and upgraded stage 1 Ebay clutch, customized intake and exhaust system with downturn, was lightened to ~2300lbs with full tank [with weight distribution shifted more towards 70F/30R], and had the suspension reworked to where on track it would keep Z06 Corvettes and Lotus Elises at bay in the turns on track. Of course it was comparatively slower when the turn ended and the track straightened out. Still was a nice daily driver if you didn't mind no interior, no A/C, and a loud exhaust: Eibach springs / Tokico Illumina adjustable were not too much firmer than stock and combined with larger Front/Rear anti-roll bars made for good stock like travel and compliance while greatly improving the lateral responsiveness (I'm a big proponent of stockish springs with better dampers and LARGE anti-roll bars). The 225/45-15 R-compound tires actually softened the ride and provided better road compliance compared to street tires and still provided more precision and grip whether dry or wet. I miss driving that car... was a true handling machine.

So if the FR-S is truly everything the reviews make it out to be (and I believe the reviews point out that it is a drivers car designed for precision handling) there is no doubt I will love it. Sure, it would have been nice if it was a few hundred lbs less, but I think the power level is fine. A 200hp/150ft-lb 4 cylinder is more than acceptable if you mate it with an excellent chassis that is not too heavy... and by all accounts the FT86 has one of the most excellent chassis's made; even if it's not quite in the 'lightweight' category. All the FR-S needs is sticky tires and better brake pads and it should be good to go!

NO, I most certainly do not call that video drifting. It's raining and the track is soaking wet!

Anything can slide around in the rain, that is not the true "sport" of drifting.

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by Kunzite

There are only 2 kinds of people on this forum:
- those who like the car, and of course are hired by either Toyota/Subaru to promote it
- those who dislike the car, and of course they are hired by the competition
There are no regular users left on the Internet.

Woops, you got me. I'm a plant from an evil car company trying to dissuade you guys from buying this car. Plz don't buy this car guys... OK?

If this car was designed for grip than why did they fit it with small/low grip tires and purposely keep the weight balance further forward? In the interviews with Tada, he very clearly said this car was NOT designed for grip like other modern sports cars.

So basically, it's not really great at anything BUT I still want this car. Why? Because it's a modern, good looking (I only like the 86/FR-S styling), and simple/reliable design. I like the size it is and the convenience of a trunk and fold down back seats. I can get navigation, phone, SiriusXM, and HomeLink all integrated (for $2250) as well. The handling should be very good and the Boxer engine should be smooth.

But there are things that certainly disappoint me. For example, if I want the Toyota style HID/LED headlamps... well, too bad, I'll probably have to import them from Germany for tons of money and carefully replace the stock ones. If I want leather/Alcantara seats, well, too bad, I'll likely have to buy the BRZ Limited seats for a ton of money and try to sell my original cloth seats. By which point I'm up over 31k in price. I don't want a BRZ Limited though because I don't like the styling and I don't want a spoiler, dual zone climate control, heated seats, or push start.

Of course, all of this is subject to a test drive. If I feel like there's a lack of power than I'm probably not going to be too excited to put down 28k+ dollars. To put it plainly, I want this car to be an upgrade from my current daily driver. I don't want to go backwards in any regard other than the obvious fact that it won't have all wheel drive. And I particularly don't want to end up having less fun driving it.

So again, I think it would have done Toyota/Subaru wonders to include a slightly bigger engine with more torque. And no, we're not talking huge engines with tons of power; another 30 lb ft of torque would have done the trick. Remember, the success of this car is very important (not that it's doing badly at all now). We should all want this car to be as good as it can be!

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by cassidy0998

NO, I most certainly do not call that video drifting. It's raining and the track is soaking wet!

Anything can slide around in the rain, that is not the true "sport" of drifting.

Not to mention, he kept having to pull the e-brake up.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Bristecom

Not to mention, he kept having to pull the e-brake up.

using the ebrake and drifting arent mutually exclusive

[blu_]

Yes, if you pull the handbrake or give it a big Scandinavian Flick on the track the thing will adopt the kind of angles

Sounds like it drifts to me. The article seems mad that you cant really do power over drifting, which I don't think you are going to be doing anyway with only a bit more torque. Its also the easiest/lamest way to get a car sideways IMO.

As far as needing a track... I think that could apply to any car, unless you are just worried about peeling out of parking lots or getting on the freeway onramp sideways. But then again I used to be able to drift a FWD ~140hp '86 GTI without need of a hand break pretty easily just using inertia and I don't think I am an amazing driver.

[adprokid]

Originally Posted by shaX 07

Love the way this car has evolved.... Lets take you on a journey through time. Once upon a time...

2 Years ago......
"The FT-86 will be priced a little over $20k, making it a very affordable new sports car"

Present Day
(Defenders of FR-S/BRZ)

"Oh well how could you expect the car to cost $22k? Economies, markets, demand, blah blah blah. That's why its $26k!"
_____________________________

Up until 1 month ago....
"This car should be fairly quick, likely in the 6.0 second range 0-60, and 14.5-14.8 quarter mile".

Present Day
(Defenders of the FR-S/BRZ)

"Oh well the car runs from 0-60 in a weak 7.3 seconds because of a bizarre 2nd gear shift at 59.3 MPH. Also the 1/4 mile time is irrelevant, this isn't a drag car!"
___________________________

The last 2 years.....
"The FT-86/FR-S/BRZ should be the next best drift car to hit the market since the 90's."

The start of this thread...
Highly credible folks test drifting capabilities of the FR-S and determine that it's a weak sauce drift car.

(Defenders of the FR-S/BRZ)
"Oh well this was never meant to be a drift car, dur!"
__________________________

So here is what we have determined this car is NOT...

This car is not "affordable" as it was once meant to be.
This car is not fast, and not considered a "drag car" so being slow is OK.
This is not a drift car, so let it go.
The back seat can fit toddlers at best.
The trunk can probably fit your backpack AND your duffle bag!
The car gets worse MPG than a 505hp Z06 Corvette that weighs 600 pounds more.


I'm not bashing the FR-S / BRZ at all. This is simply my identification of what this car is NOT, though I am trying to figure out just what this car IS.

This car is overhyped

[Deslock]

Against my better judgement, I'll respond:

Originally Posted by shaX 07

This car is not "affordable" as it was once meant to be.

Rumor timeline:

• 2007: $17-18k for 120 hp 1.5L RWD.
• 2009: 2.0L RWD concept introduced with a target from "around $20k" to "low $20,000s". Power unknown (rumors put it at 157, 180, or 200 HP).
• 2011: 200 HP 2.0L RWD starting at low $20,000s to $25k.

Given that the Si is $22k, there was no way a lighter, RWD, 200 HP FT86 was going to be less than $23k. Its starting price of $24k is only ~4% more than that. BFD.

Originally Posted by shaX 07

This car is not fast, and not considered a "drag car" so being slow is OK.

We're getting exactly what was expected.

Originally Posted by shaX 07

This is not a drift car, so let it go.

The drifting craze started with cars with far less power than the FT86, a fact that the carmagazine.co.uk article glossed over.

Originally Posted by shaX 07

The back seat can fit toddlers at best.

Measurements with two passenger-side adults.

Originally Posted by shaX 07

The trunk can probably fit your backpack AND your duffle bag!

Measurements of cargo area.

Originally Posted by shaX 07

The car gets worse MPG than a 505hp Z06 Corvette that weighs 600 pounds more.

Here's how much better the FT86 does than the Z06 (city/combined/highway):

AT: 56% / 47% / 31%
MT: 47% / 39% / 25%

Haters will shout "It only gets 200 HP!!!". The reality is that small NA engines tuned for output and throttle response never get great EPA MPG ratings (especially highway), though they often exceed them.

Originally Posted by shaX 07

I am trying to figure out just what this car IS.

A fixed roof 2+2 Miata.

Originally Posted by shaX 07

I read that the car handles really well, but that's about all it does.

Remedial reading drills.

Originally Posted by shaX 07

Why not just buy a car that's capable in all of those other areas and slap on some coilovers?

That only addresses so much.

Originally Posted by shaX 07

I just don't understand why so many people have a hard on for this car.

Because we haven't had a reasonably priced, relatively lightweight, RWD 2+2 in a long time.

My '99 MX5 is far more rewarding than any other car I've owned, even though my last three were significantly faster in a straight line. I'm hopeful the FT86 will offer similarly fun RWD/lightweight dynamics, but with a little more practicality. I look forward to the FT86 test drive.

So to recap: You're a bench racing troll that posts hyperbolic nonsense and false information. Welcome to my ignore list.

[Draco-REX]

As above, this car is exactly what they promised years ago. Anyone who was expecting different wasn't paying attention, or was paying attention to questionable sources.

Hell, I just found posts on IWSTI.com from over a YEAR ago with 2800lbs and 200hp. Don't know where these people expecting high horsepower have been.

And just found a thread on NASIOC from 2009. And wouldn't you know it, 200hp 2.0L engine.

It is funny to see some of the declarations in hindsight though:

SUBARU'S NOT GOING TO MAKE A COUPE. GET OUT OF TOWN1!!!!!!!



AM I RITE!!!!

EDIT: and I get beaten to the line by Deslock.