FR-S vs S2000

[Marrk]

Ha! It doesn't move. You just notice that you went over something. We are talking about information being transmitted from the road/tire to the driver. Imagine all the road sense that you currently get from whatever you are driving currently. Then, magnify it ten times.

[serialk11r]

Wait, but what does that have to do with steering then? The steering wheel is rigidly attached to the chassis...

[Dimman]

Bump steer isn't what you think. It's dynamic toe changes as the suspension moves through its geometric arcs.

As for feel it has a bit to do with how much the factory wants to isolate the steering wheel from tire motion/nvh. Clearances in the rack and ujoints/bushings play a role.

Edit:
Nothing is rigidly mounted...

[serialk11r]

I still don't get it, the steering wheel only has rotating motion independent of chassis vibration...

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I still don't get it, the steering wheel only has rotating motion independent of chassis vibration...

Think of all the linkages from the hubs to the rack all the way to the steering wheel.

[SUB-FT86]

Its kind of hard to explain serial, but I know what Marrk means 100%. For me steering feel is the ability to feel what the tires are doing constantly and relaying it back to the steering wheel. The feel of the chassis also plays a major part in ''feel'' especially depending on the suspension setup.

[AaronCompNetSys]

From what I can tell, people who like feeling in the wheel use the vibrations to help tell them what the status of grip is at the front tires, including the road surface. Kind of like how some people use tire squeal to tell the limit of grip.

Personally, I rely on feeling the yaw of the car, watching the road, as well as experience on knowing what grip the tire will have per how much I'm loading the tire up via weight transfer. I don't depend on squeal or feedback though the wheel, as I will only corner aggressively if I can predict the grip at each of my 4 tires before I enter a turn. My predictions of course are not perfect but they give me that extra second of safety that reaction-only drivers don't get.

As far as power steering and feeling it in my hands, I could care less about a mute wheel as long as it is accurate and reactive. I would also prefer more power steering because many times when corners require shifting, my one arm may not be strong enough. Especially when oversteer occurs and I may have to correct or double correct. One reason people spin S2Ks is they cannot correct fast enough because at speed there is no power steering, EPS is deactivated.

I know all about trying to tame the S2Ks overstear:



I participated in time attack as well as drifting that day.

[86fanatic]

If you don't know what steering feel is drive a manual rack down a straight road back to back with something like a Camry, it will be clear as day. Steering feel involves communicating what the tires are feeling back to the driver. Information such as traction of the road, road imperfections, road texture even. All that information is key to a driver making a decision about turning the wheel and gives confidence into and out of corners.

The S2000 does not communicate any of those information very well, making it a very hairy ride and for my taste at least, not involving enough.

That and the convertible aspect just kills it for me too.

[iLuveKetchup]

^ what do you drive now?

[samsam5886]

I jotted down some of the things I care about comparing the two. This was originally for myself but then I stumbled upon this thread and thought I might share.

FR-S compared to S2000:
Seats 4 and better audio system than AP1 (arguably)
Also aluminum hood and engine block
Lower center of gravity and maybe even lower than Porsche's
No 50/50 weight distribution (engine doesn't sit behind front axle) but very close
Slightly more grip than stock AP1 not considering tire choice (860mm total tire width except on 17s)
No front double wishbone suspension but Porsches don't have them either
Chassis rigidity probably less (no X-bone monocoque frame) but possibly the same due to roof, if not just a little less
Lower redline and just about 25 hp slower (based off of whp to weight ratio) but power isn't that important to me and power is more "usable"
Also high compression engine with high power per liter but not as high
Gas cap inconvenient on right but you get more exercise
Oil filter very easy to access
Spark plugs harder to change and ignition coils possibly dirtier from sitting lower, but this is once in around 100,000 miles anyways
No HID, no top down

[Gardus@Supersprint]

Mmm the S2000 steering feel issue.
I had a S2000 in 2002, EU spec, I was lot less an experienced driver than now, but what I always felt about it is that the steering was quick and direct but it was hard to understand when the car was on the limit, especially changing direction and correcting oversteer.
For comparison the 350Z, thanks also to the longer wheelbase but also to the heavier and more communicative wheel, is much easier to predict.

I had also a few of the FWD cars which steering has been appreciated by the press, the original Mini Cooper (my02) and the Clio RS.
On these cars you can always tell when the car was on the limit of understeer and how much traction you had, the type of surface, the camber of the road.
Also opposite lock was very natural (handbrake turns, lift off oversteering).

I can make a comparison between the hydraulic system of the 1st Cooper R50 and the electric one on the R56 my08 I have now.
It has less feeling but the most annoying thing is that it gets distracted by bumps, the same corner with a bump in the middle with the R50 resulted in just a tyny sensation at the wheel but handling was perfect.
On The R56 the wheel gets totally light, as your applying constant load you find yourself without any resistance and you steer more, so the handling is disturbed by this unwanted imput.

I hear that more recent electric systems are better but not perfect yet, we'll see.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by samsam5886

I jotted down some of the things I care about comparing the two. This was originally for myself but then I stumbled upon this thread and thought I might share.

FR-S compared to S2000:
Seats 4 and better audio system than AP1 (arguably)
Also aluminum hood and engine block
Lower center of gravity and maybe even lower than Porsche's
No 50/50 weight distribution (engine doesn't sit behind front axle) but very close
Slightly more grip than stock AP1 not considering tire choice (860mm total tire width except on 17s)
No front double wishbone suspension but Porsches don't have them either
Chassis rigidity probably less (no X-bone monocoque frame) but possibly the same due to roof, if not just a little less
Lower redline and just about 25 hp slower (based off of whp to weight ratio) but power isn't that important to me and power is more "usable"
Also high compression engine with high power per liter but not as high
Gas cap inconvenient on right but you get more exercise
Oil filter very easy to access
Spark plugs harder to change and ignition coils possibly dirtier from sitting lower, but this is once in around 100,000 miles anyways
No HID, no top down

Sam, you forgot the lack of factory camber adjustment in the front...

Aero looks to be better. I can already imagine the car with a Voltex wing and APR front splitter. And diffuser.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by samsam5886

FR-S compared to S2000:
Lower center of gravity and maybe even lower than Porsche's

Maybe.
I doubt that the FR-S/BRZ c.g. is much (if any) lower than an S2000s.
For sure they are hyping the low center of gravity, which is great. But there are ways that the actual c.g. could be different from the published figure, and I don't know if we have a reliable c.g. figure for the S2000.

No 50/50 weight distribution (engine doesn't sit behind front axle) but very close

The FR-S is 53/47 with a driver and passenger and full tank (which is how they arrived at that distribution), it's going to be 55/45 with a driver only and half a tank. 55/45 isn't "very close" to 50/50 IMO. The S2000 is 49/51 with driver and half a tank, *better* than 50/50 (50/50 is *not* "perfect" weight distribution for a rear-drive car, more rearward is better).

Slightly more grip than stock AP1 not considering tire choice (860mm total tire width except on 17s)

17" tires aren't inherently grippier than 16" of the same width/OD.
FR-S won't have a grip advantage vs. AP1 on the same make/model tires.

For the FR-S/BRZ mission and power/weight, I don't think the 55/45 distribution is a big deal (same as my old S13 which handled brilliantly). But the S2000 is definitely the racier platform.

[Gardus@Supersprint]

I think the S2000 is grippier because is fitted with S02/03 or Re040 tyres as OEM equipment, the 86 has enery saving tyres, am I right?