More info on Penske shocks

[RBbugBITme]

Bleed adjusters are always only for low speed. For independent high speed adjustability we would just add an external reservoir or for really fancy stuff, an 8780 manifold.

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[7thgear]

@RBbugBITme


what are your thoughts on the idea behind the mass marketing of high rebound / low compression dampers for what seems to be 99% of off the shelf stuff.


and why don't damper tuners/manufacturers offer the public units that mimick the behavior of rally cars that actually work to absorb the bumps on rough terrain?

and why does it look like 99% of the enthusiasts and tuners think that for a car to handle well it has to feel stiff?

[gramicci101]

Ooh, I can answer the last one!

Because we don't know any better.

[Model Citizen]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

Ooh, I can answer the last one!

Because stance nation, instagram and sleeved 28 year olds living with their parents.

Fixed

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by Model Citizen

Fixed

Not really. I doubt you'll find any of the stance guys that say they do it for better handling. They know they're going for appearance over function.

Also, I don't live at home and I don't have any tattoos. And I'm not 28. So ha.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

Not really. I doubt you'll find any of the stance guys that say they do it for better handling. They know they're going for appearance over function.

if they did they would just cut springs and call it a day. I will be surprised to ever meet a stance guy in person who will tell me straight up that "my car handles like shit but I don't care"

[Model Citizen]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

Not really. I doubt you'll find any of the stance guys that say they do it for better handling. They know they're going for appearance over function.

Also, I don't live at home and I don't have any tattoos. And I'm not 28. So ha.

You mustve missed all the theads on other forums and local neckbeards where people talk about how awesome their slammed on racelands/ksports/megans/d2/tablelegs handle.

Also, wasnt directed at you. Why so serious son?

[RBbugBITme]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

@RBbugBITme


what are your thoughts on the idea behind the mass marketing of high rebound / low compression dampers for what seems to be 99% of off the shelf stuff.

and why don't damper tuners/manufacturers offer the public units that mimick the behavior of rally cars that actually work to absorb the bumps on rough terrain?

and why does it look like 99% of the enthusiasts and tuners think that for a car to handle well it has to feel stiff?

First, we don't always know why or care why others set up their dampers differently than us and usually when they see our curves they say something like "that won't work" (Just heard that from a guy in Detroit a couple weeks ago). Obviously they do work and a lot of times we have stiffer damping in the low speed range and softer damping in the high speed range. This often leads to the team experimenting with softer spring rates which is one way we can usually get better grip from the car.

That being said, most lowered street cars have very stiff springs and the same philosophy continues... You need softer valving in the low speed range to account for the stiff spring and then a lot of rebound to control the spring. You have to realize, pretty much every major competitor we have gets most of their revenue from supplying OEMs. Racing for them is a marketing exercise and this is generally how OEMs dampen their cars so they follow the same philosophy when they do something for the aftermarket or race cars. Racing is how we make our money so we are always pushing the envelope to get an edge just to stay in business.

EDIT: Also, IMO soft damping hides the fact that the shock may suck. They're effectively limiting its affect on your suspension which allows them to get away with cheaper parts.

Why do the masses think they need a very stiff setup? A lot of times they actually do because of the amount they lower the car and how little travel is left for those pesky pot holes. It also feels really good on a nice smooth mountain road. Couple that with no data logging to know what really is or isn't working and a bunch of guys on the forums saying their stiff car handles great and voila. Also, most guys aren't paying to get multiple sets of springs to experiment, they just take whats given to them with the shocks. I've actually been told guys will shy away from us because we don't offer an all inclusive package including springs. There are too many options with pistons/springs/adjusters and calling us to discuss it is too intimidating if they don't think they know enough about shocks.

Rally cars are very different, I don't think I can make a comparison to street driven cars that would lead to similar damper curves.

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by Model Citizen

You mustve missed all the theads on other forums and local neckbeards where people talk about how awesome their slammed on racelands/ksports/megans/d2/tablelegs handle.

Also, wasnt directed at you. Why so serious son?

I tend to stay off this forums, they're creepy.

I know it wasn't directed at me; I was responding in jest.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by RBbugBITme

I have no idea what something like Bilstein or KW's use because they're twin tubes and we don't deal with that junk.

well that's kind of harsh.. you don't know what they have but assume it's flat out junk?

I can't imagine that you've never dissected a competitor's unit to take notes. At the end of the day it's the marginal improvement that people seem to be fuzzy on.


If I pay 10 grand for Penske shocks, is my car going to be 10 times as comfortable and corner 10 times as fast as a car on off the shelf Bilsteins or Konis? Your Daytona car gained 0.4 seconds... that's on a car that travels upwards of 200mph over a large distance. How much would that gain be on an autocross car driving a 600-800 meter setup at speeds less than 50mph?


A Bilstein is monotube.. btw...

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

We need to bring you on here full time.

I was gonna say the same thing.

Ryan, what are your thoughts on many OEMs designing their suspensions to essentially ride on the bumpstops full time and get a significant and progressive amount of spring rate from them? Why do they do this?

My suspicion....it has something to do with:

Originally Posted by RBbugBITme

Also, IMO soft damping hides the fact that the shock may suck. They're effectively limiting its affect on your suspension which allows them to get away with cheaper parts.

Riding the bumpstops should let you get away with softer (and lower quality) shocks. You get support from the bumpstop that feels nice for the masses and progressively leads to safe understeer when you overload the front tires, but when the shock is extended it only needs to damp the soft main spring. Make sense?

- Andy

[RBbugBITme]

7thgear...

I said I don't know what gas pressures they run.

Half the crap that has come across my desk this year are KW twin tubes from GT cars in World Challenge/Tudor/Continental Tire. I have no need or desire to open them up, I just take the overall length and mounting dimensions.

Yes Bilstein makes mono and twin tube...

If I pay 10 grand for Penske shocks, is my car going to be 10 times as comfortable and corner 10 times as fast as a car on off the shelf Bilsteins or Konis? Your Daytona car gained 0.4 seconds... that's on a car that travels upwards of 200mph over a large distance. How much would that gain be on an autocross car driving a 600-800 meter setup at speeds less than 50mph?

I have no idea how much faster you'll go. But the car at Daytona gained all their time in the corners, not at 200mph.

[RBbugBITme]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Ryan, what are your thoughts on many OEMs designing their suspensions to essentially ride on the bumpstops full time and get a significant and progressive amount of spring rate from them? Why do they do this?

Its just something some suspension guys buy into philosophically or its cheaper to use bump stops than a tender spring.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by RBbugBITme

Its just something some suspension guys buy into philosophically or its cheaper to use bump stops than a tender spring.

but this is not optimal, correct?


and if yes, is purely the progressiveness of the rate or the material choice/force distribution.