Can you name any FWD sports cars?

[stugray]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

stugray:

The snarkiness in my response above isn't directed at you personally but at the logical fallacy that's so often propagated in this never ending dance which is: Because RWD is superior, FWD cannot be considered sports car.

Well if we utilize this same logic when presented with new evidence that AWD is superior, we must conclude that due to RWD inferiority to AWD that RWD cars may no longer be considered sports cars.

If that logic sounds ridiculous, it's because it is.

My opinion is just that. And since I race in vintage racing, my bias against FWD is obviously understandable (there were no good FWD cars in the 70s).
However the cars that I am experienced with are also the cars that were the foundation of the term "sports car", so perhaps the term is set in stone in my world.

And your logic is partially sound:
Progressing to better technology (RWD to AWD) is fine.
I still classify a Good AWD as a sports car.
I just consider going from RWD to FWD to be a downgrade in performance.
I never suggested taking away the badge of Sports car from RWD because of AWD.
I just dont agree with applying the term to something I consider Inferior to what existed first.

People thought they knew what the word "marriage" meant until just recently.
For some people popular opinion will never change that definition.

[stugray]

Originally Posted by stugray

Ummmm...... The banner is based on your cookies.
The banner is showing me dell laptops.

Annnnnd Now it's showing me an ad for Tire-rack Goodyear products....
Because yesterday I was looking for Eagle GTs for the 914

[rice_classic]

You guys have to got learn about Firefox and Adblock plus. I didn't even know this website had advertising on it until I visited it with IE on another computer.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by stugray

My opinion is just that. And since I race in vintage racing, my bias against FWD is obviously understandable (there were no good FWD cars in the 70s).

Fair. I have a bit of a bias against anything with a carburetor.

Originally Posted by stugray

I just consider going from RWD to FWD to be a downgrade in performance.

That's silly. Just like I could consider anything with Mac Struts a "downgrade in performance" when it ain't necessarily so.

You shouldn't consider FWD downgrade in fun though. The downgrade in performance is primarily based around the reality of FWD as people mover. But when taken seriously, it's rather respectable. Have you properly thrashed a really good FWD sports car at a track?

You may want to consider this too:
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCrburgring_lap_times"]List of Nürburgring Nordschleife lap times - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

At 7:54.36 the Renault Megane RS 275 set a faster lap time in a FWD car with only 275HP than..

Caterham R500
Ferrari F430
Corvette C5
Porsche 996
NSX-R
R33 V-spec

At this stage in the game, it's ridiculous to think a car that is faster than that list of cars is not a sports car simply because it's FWD.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

You guys have to got learn about Firefox and Adblock plus. I didn't even know this website had advertising on it until I visited it with IE on another computer.

Meh, lived off of it a few years back, Youtube and Hulu figured out how to fuck with you if you were running it (laggy, poor quality, freezing at commercial points) took it off and realized I don't really mind that much.

And yes, I know how to configure it so that it unblocks certain sites, I just don't want to deal with it.

[paulca]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

At 7:54.36 the Renault Megane RS 275 set a faster lap time in a FWD car with only 275HP than..

Caterham R500

The trouble with Nurburgring laps is there is not standard for conditions, tyres and other factors.

Some laps are done on closed days by professional outfits or manufacturers with a clear track, slick tyres, boosted fuel with the seats and everything else removed that can be, cars show up on trailers. Others are done by amateurs or magazines on street legal tyres, "drive to track, race, drive home" style. Some are done with "tourist traffic", some are done in the wet.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by paulca

The trouble with Nurburgring laps is there is not standard for conditions, tyres and other factors.

Some laps are done on closed days by professional outfits or manufacturers with a clear track, slick tyres, boosted fuel with the seats and everything else removed that can be, cars show up on trailers. Others are done by amateurs or magazines on street legal tyres, "drive to track, race, drive home" style. Some are done with "tourist traffic", some are done in the wet.

The biggest issue with comparing the times listed against that megane is tires. That megane ran on some super cheater semi slick pilot sport cup2. Tire tech has advanced so much in the last 10 years that you can't really compare times without knowing what tires they ran.

That megane was also rolling on custom ohlins.

That being said, I feel like vehicle design within a budget constraint is more interesting than custom race car designs where the person with the deepest pockets wins. Within a budget constraint there are very valid reasons to go with fwd for track times. Old cars had crap tires and crap suspension and crap lsd so fwd cars couldn't put power down, but modern tires and suspension make the weight trade-off more of an interesting problem in lower hp cars.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by paulca

The trouble with Nurburgring laps is there is not standard for conditions, tyres and other factors.

Doesn't matter. We know the condition the track was in when the 275 ran, we know it's power and tires. If it was faster than 1 or 2 "superior" cars then maybe your argument holds water, but look at those times again. It's faster than a LONG list of "superior" cars both rwd and awd. We have a little saying at the race track: The data doesn't lie. Even if we exclude the comparisons, any grocery getter, regardless of drivetrain layout, that can lap the ring under 8 minutes deserves respect.

Or maybe not. After all I still meet people who believe the Earth is 6000 years old or believe in chem-trails.

I wonder what it will take? Maybe someday we'll see a FWD car with warp drive that will bend the fabric of time and space and people will still say, "yeah but it's still a fwd shitbox."

[rice_classic]

Sport Cup 2 is 180 TW. I think the tires that came stock on the S2000 (S-02s) were 140 TW (citation needed).

What about the Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale F1? I'm pretty sure the dampers and tires in that are pretty top notch. Same with the Aston Martin DBS. I know he NSX-R came with damn sticky tires too. Same with the F430 F1.

Sorry but I gotta draw the line there... according the prevailing wisdom in this thread (or not) the FWD should never be even close to a Ferrari F430 F1, ever... period. done.

Even if it was close to the speed of those cars that should garner enough respect to essentially end this debate. But it wasn't just close to the Ferrari, or the Porsche or the Aston... It was faster. The debate, for all I'm concerned is closed at that point. A sub 300hp, FWD Hatchback lapped the ring faster than those 3 cars.

Yes, FWD cars can be sports cars and RWD elitism is as relevant as the opinions of people who still think he earth is flat.

[totopo]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Doesn't matter. We know the condition the track was in when the 275 ran, we know it's power and tires. If it was faster than 1 or 2 "superior" cars then maybe your argument holds water, but look at those times again. It's faster than a LONG list of "superior" cars both rwd and awd. We have a little saying at the race track: The data doesn't lie. Even if we exclude the comparisons, any grocery getter, regardless of drivetrain layout, that can lap the ring under 8 minutes deserves respect.

Or maybe not. After all I still meet people who believe the Earth is 6000 years old or believe in chem-trails.

I wonder what it will take? Maybe someday we'll see a FWD car with warp drive that will bend the fabric of time and space and people will still say, "yeah but it's still a fwd shitbox."

The big problem is tire tech has such a big impact on times it's not even funny. Thise comparisons are all like 10 years old when street tires are nowhere near as good as they are now. The more valid comparison is that it ran a second faster time than a 2013 Porsche Cayman s driven by a pro driver and only 2 sec slower than an 2014 m4 driven by a pro driver. They probably were using oem tires though, and not that ultra cheater pilot sport cup 2

[paulca]

Tyres make an absolutely massive difference, so if a few of those "superior" cars where running on bog standard street tyres, trying to be fair, and the megane shows up with her prissy boots, obviously the lap times are not comparable. On such a long tough circuit tyres could make a half minute difference!

Remember a Ford Transit van will go round it in 10 minutes.

Not saying the Megane isn't a quick car. Just that nobody really takes Nurburgring comparisons without a pinch of salt.

It's a 14 hour drive from here. Someday I might visit rentaracecar.de.

[rice_classic]

Tire tech hasn't had a "revolution" in the last 10 years, you're delusional if you think so. A 180 Treadwear tire today is roughly equivalent to a 180 treadwear tire from a decade ago and definitely 5 years ago.

For reference, the Bridgestone Potenzas for the S2000 in 1999 were TW 140 and the Pilot Sport Cup2 are 180TW.

The Michelin Sport Cup 2 are not cheater tires. You're kidding yourselves with this. It's not a cheater tire by any stretch of the imagination and there's more aggressive street legal DOT tires on the market now and 10 years ago.

But why bother... At this point it's like trying to teach science to creationists. Two FWD cars have lapped the Ring under 8 minutes in OEM trim and all we get are excuses from the "RWD bible of elitism". FWD won't ever make a good formula car or a LeMans challenger but as far as production sports cars go.. They've been "there" for awhile now.

[paulca]

It's not a sports car.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by paulca

It's not a sports car.

Your face is a car.