Who is happy the engine will be Naturally Aspirated?

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by AshWilliams

Pounds per horsepower is a useful yardstick for performance, hp per liter doesn't impress me as much.

Most performance cars are in the 8-9 lbs/hp. At 200 hp, the 86 is 13.5-14 lbs/hp. Some 1500 pickups have a similar ratio.

Especially when it comes to 4 cylinder engines. But with a 6/8/12 cylinder it's a different story for me. Just look at the new 911 S, 3.8l with 400hp/325tq in a 3,200 lb body.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Does the K20 pass current emissions? I think this year is when they updated the standards isn't it? Toyota/Honda care about getting the SULEV whatever ratings rather than just barely passing, so that might be part of the reason they stopped using the K, but that's just a wild guess.

Okay just checked wikipedia, apparently LEV II started in 2010 so the K20 does pass emissions.

However the K20 is clearly less efficient as it needs 7400rpm to make 200hp rather than 7000.

It doesn't have D/I that's why. If the FA20 didn't have D/I it wouldn't even have made 100hp/liter. I wonder if the K20 could've benefit from it also as I despise my engine even though it isn't the high revving one.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

Wasn't the entire purpose of Toyota's assistance to offset some of the GDI expenses? Especially considering the GDI is only implemented into the FA20, and not the rest of the engine lineup hitting the pavement in the next few years. I mean the D4S is a toyota proprietary product is it not? So i can't imagine that Subaru would be footing the bill for the overhead of implementing a Toyota product onto a car they designed to net Toyota more money.

Not just that, how much of the FA20 architecture is actually brand spanking new, I know the R&D testing and paper punching aspect of engine building is the majority of the coin spent, but i find it hard to believe this engine is getting the ground up treatment in those respects either.

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Even THOUGH the Civic being an absolute anomaly in the Honda world (it being a terrible terrible product, so bad Honda is replacing it in record time)

The Civic does produce more power in both categories with it's K24.
It produces 201HP to the FRS/BRZ's 198....and produces 170Ftlbs of torque to the FRS/BRZ's 150.

If Toyota wasn't involved this project wouldn't exist, so it did help. The FA20 is similar to the FB20 but the amount of changes is quite significant including the addition of GDI. Plus there was chassis and suspension design to consider among other things. The output is perfectly inline with my expectations and it's competitive for a N/A.

The 2012 civic has a 2.4L too though, so even though it makes the same HP at the same peak RPM, it doesn't have GDI so the output per displacement is not the same. The older K20 made 200HP at closer to 8k RPM.

[koyv90]

Originally Posted by Exhaust

I can see why people hate the performance of this engine stock due to price but why? From what ive read this car has plenty of room for customization/upgrades. So basically everything comes down to this, you can pony up and drop the money to get the equivalent to a high performance sports car of your dreams (if not close enough if you want Ferrari performance keep dreaming) OR you can be conservative and leave the car as is and enjoy it as a "Pure" sports car N/A. Ofcourse the argument goes to say "why not buy a better car?" because this is a TUNER car, whats the fun in tuning if everything is already done for you? Just my two cents...

one of my biggest worries is that the engine, while open to upgrades, will not be a engine that is actually good with upgrades. What if a Ej motor actually works better and produces more value for your money. This would make the new engine worthless and even worse make the brz/fr-s a 25k shell; that most enthusiasts will swap a ej into.

[Dimman]

^ Keep it in perspective. The best of the old is usually better than the first of the new.

The D4-S is going to scare a lot of traditional Subie 'tuners' and they may go EJ and start off with claiming the EJ is better, blah, blah... But once a couple serious guys get a hold of an FA and figure out what they're doing and what it's capable of, it'll likely surpass the EJ.

[koyv90]

Originally Posted by Dimman

^ Keep it in perspective. The best of the old is usually better than the first of the new.

The D4-S is going to scare a lot of traditional Subie 'tuners' and they may go EJ and start off with claiming the EJ is better, blah, blah... But once a couple serious guys get a hold of an FA and figure out what they're doing and what it's capable of, it'll likely surpass the EJ.

Well lets hope so. It's also why I am waiting a couple years to get it. I want to have lots of information available before i decide to do a build.

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Just so we're clear, it's advertised as 200 PS [197 HP] in all other markets except the North American market. Here, it's advertised as 200 HP. The reason for the difference is speculation at this point.

Is it speculation? I thought it's been announced that the USDM-only exhaust will yield a few more horsepower.

[PERRIN_Jeff]

Originally Posted by Dimman

^ Keep it in perspective. The best of the old is usually better than the first of the new.

The D4-S is going to scare a lot of traditional Subie 'tuners' and they may go EJ and start off with claiming the EJ is better, blah, blah... But once a couple serious guys get a hold of an FA and figure out what they're doing and what it's capable of, it'll likely surpass the EJ.

Scared, no way! I love change and I love the opportunity to make big power on this new engine. Both NA and turbo! We heard that Cosworth is already in the works for both NA and turbo power!

Originally Posted by koyv90

one of my biggest worries is that the engine, while open to upgrades, will not be a engine that is actually good with upgrades. What if a Ej motor actually works better and produces more value for your money. This would make the new engine worthless and even worse make the brz/fr-s a 25k shell; that most enthusiasts will swap a ej into.

Good point for sure. The deal breaker could be that you need a standalone ECU to run the EJ. Or if an the EJ engine works, I bet customers would need to buy a 2008+ STI ECU/engine to ensure the dash and traction control/DSC stuff still functions. This all adds up quick, and may mean that its not as common as we think it might be. There are quite a few unknowns at this point we will just have to see.

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

If Toyota wasn't involved this project wouldn't exist, so it did help.
The 2012 civic has a 2.4L too though, so even though it makes the same HP at the same peak RPM, it doesn't have GDI so the output per displacement is not the same. The older K20 made 200HP at closer to 8k RPM.

Good point! The FA makes 200HP at a lower RPM than the K20. So does that mean there is a ton left on the table for those who want to rev to 8500 (with proper mods)? I say yes!

The K20 engines make great HP with a few goodies. I have seen 220WHP from them, which is outstanding! Even a few 250 WHP cars with cams and 9000RPM.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

Is it speculation? I thought it's been announced that the USDM-only exhaust will yield a few more horsepower.

No, it's not speculation. Does nobody else read the official press releases? I prefer to get my information direct from the source.

Both Scion and Subaru put "200HP" and "100HP/L" respectively in their official press releases for the USDM cars during the MSRP releases. <--click the links, they have the official press releases within them.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by PERRIN_Jeff

The K20 engines make great HP with a few goodies. I have seen 220WHP from them, which is outstanding! Even a few 250 WHP cars with cams and 9000RPM.

We'll have to see if that applies to the FA20 though.

Originally Posted by Ryephile

No, it's not speculation. Does nobody else read the official press releases? I prefer to get my information direct from the source.

Both Scion and Subaru put "200HP" and "100HP/L" respectively in their official press releases for the USDM cars during the MSRP releases. <--click the links, they have the official press releases within them.

Heh, It's been awhile since I last read those.

Originally Posted by switchlanez

Is it speculation? I thought it's been announced that the USDM-only exhaust will yield a few more horsepower.

The only difference that I am aware of for the USDM exhaust is a smaller TIP(read no fartcans) due to noise restrictions. I dunno about the more HP part, that was a rumor last I heard.

[serialk11r]

Er, Allch Chcar I think you got it wrong, in Japan the exhaust is quieter and more restrictive due to noise regulations, in America the tip is smaller because crash safety or something says you can't have the exhaust sticking past the bumper.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Er, Allch Chcar I think you got it wrong, in Japan the exhaust is quieter and more restrictive due to noise regulations, in America the tip is smaller because crash safety or something says you can't have the exhaust sticking past the bumper.

Where'd you hear that info?

[uspspro]

Some quick math...

HP = (TQ*RPM)5252

So here are some numbers:

150 ft lb @ 8500 rpm = 243 hp
150 ft lb @ 8000 rpm = 228 hp
150 ft lb @ 7500 rpm = 214 hp
150 ft lb @ 7000 rpm = 200 hp

Same thing for 155ft lb

155 ft lb @ 8500 rpm = 251 hp
155 ft lb @ 8000 rpm = 236 hp
155 ft lb @ 7500 rpm = 221 hp
155 ft lb @ 7000 rpm = 207 hp

Same thing for 160ft lb

160 ft lb @ 8500 rpm = 259 hp
160 ft lb @ 8000 rpm = 244 hp
160 ft lb @ 7500 rpm = 228 hp
160 ft lb @ 7000 rpm = 213 hp

Same thing for 165ft lb

165 ft lb @ 8500 rpm = 267 hp
165 ft lb @ 8000 rpm = 251 hp
165 ft lb @ 7500 rpm = 236 hp
165 ft lb @ 7000 rpm = 220 hp
165 ft lb @ 6500 rpm = 204 hp

To be be realistic about a 2.0L NA engine, consider the following:

- It's not going to make much more than about 165 ft lb of torque, just looking at what's out there. A beams 3SGE makes 162 ft lb with 11.5:1 c/r with the same bore & stroke. The FA20 c/r is higher, and DI should allow for more timing advance. But essentially this is what a NA 2.0L I-4 can do (maybe 170?).

- To make good power it needs to keep that torque going into the high RPM range.

.

So for a hypothetical modified FA20, let's say we can bring the peak torque to about 165 ft lb and being able to hold onto much of that beyond 7000:

165 lb ft (100% of peak) @ 6500 = 204 hp
160 lb ft (97% of peak) @ 7000 = 213 hp
155 lb ft (94% of peak) @ 7500 = 221 hp
150 lb ft (91% of peak) @ 8000 = 228 hp

This is what I have in my mind for an NA modified FA20 (breathing mods and tuning, +500 rpm)

So 225-230 hp is probably what's possible without a crazy redline.

With 9000 revs, then even 145 lb ft gets you to 248 hp. With serious cams, that number can go over 250 hp.

IMHO, if the parts come out to get the NA FA20 to 230+ hp that would be a very tempting option

Although I am still thinking that the Rotrex kit will be my preferred poison. something like 190-200 lb ft at around redline, still with that crisp NA-like transient response

That said, I myself am happy it's NA. I can do bolt-on NA mods, or do a Rotrex, or whatever I want. I am just glad they didn't stick us with a turbo It sounds like the "character" of this engine is just right, and a few mods will help erk out some more.

[mrtodd]

^Agreed %100.

Perhaps they (subaru or toyota) will come out with a turbo'd version at some point, but I, personally, am very glad it was designed as NA from the get go. Makes the options a little more exciting for the tuning community, IMHO.

I've stated it before and I'll state it again, I'm really REALLY hoping that variable lift gets added in later on - it could make for a very streetable powerband with even more room for high rpm breathing.