Open Letter to Potential FR-S Buyers & Disillusioned Owners

[P86RAVES]

Originally Posted by Vracer111

there's no way you can drive an FRS 10/10 or even 8/10 on the street and keep it remotely reasonable with non-stock tires, which is why I must handicap the car...it's just too fast with sticky tires (and wheel combo that reduces the unsprung mass nearly 5lb a corner from stock)!

Even on the stock 'Prius' tires its capable of a roadholding grip of .96G's in the dry on concrete...

Originally Posted by AVodka14

So, what do you like about your FRS?

• It looks fantastic, better than a lot of new cars. You can sometimes look at a car and tell if it's going to become dated, the E9X BMW for example. I don't think this one will so quick, the BRZ even less.
• I was born in 86, this is an 86. My car is a series 10 and also the 10th car I've owned.
• As mentioned by another user, it's exciting to think about. The previous two cars I bought I did so with the logic that they could be something I would drive without feeling I'd have to modify them to enjoy, an '05 330Ci ZHP and an '04 STi. I ended up slightly modifying both cars because that's just apart of who I am. Seeing how the market has taken to the FT86 makes me excited for all the possible things I'll be able to do to it. Toyota's D4S is the only thing that has me concerned, from a tuning standpoint, because there isn't a huge knowledge base about it yet.
• It looks fantastic. Still.
  
• Subaru Engineered it. That probably has something to do with rattles... and the brake feel.
  
• Toyota Styled it. When Toyota tries, they do well in the style department. Unless they over try like the Alien face Lexus.
  
• I can swing my legs and elbows about more than most cars its size. I've been lifting, and now that my back is wider the seat suggest my shoulders be more foward than feels comfortable.
  
• The idea of it.
  
• The engine bay looks spacious.
  
• The trunk has shocks. Those are a nice touch.
  
• The visibility out of the front and side windows is great!
  
• I can rest my arm on the door without feeling like I'm trying to put myself in a half nelson, like how it feels in a Z33.
  
• It's dimensionally close to a 240SX, which I consider the ideal fun RWD econo-car.
  

Originally Posted by Tromatic

Not sure if serious for most of your post. Curious if LFA owners are in the joke of the three systems intentionally tuned for sound as well. From all indications, the designers of the car hit the target they were aiming at, but somehow it's a failure? I either totally misunderstood you post, or you really need to sell your car.

I haven't driven an LFA, so can't speak with any experience on that.

The FT86 is by no means a failure. It reached its audience well and it's selling well enough for now.

The point of my post was to add to the discussion for potential buyers and disillusioned owners. I wanted to state that the car is meant for fun; not amazing handling or power, just fun. Because fun is so subjective to a person's taste, I wanted to opine why I thought it was fun and also why I don't see it as the same hot doughnut sign that many do.

I have been looking at used WRX's and M3's, so my car is always for sale. Unless I develop some kind of relationship with it that make it hard to part with.

Originally Posted by FRSRAVEN

Those places where its just you, your car, and a wonderful road...no other traffic or distractions. [or internet meanies telling you how bad your car is - PG86]

The GT86 instills this sense of driving excitement that few if any cars can match...at least those affordable to "everyman."

But here is the problem. I don't live in an ideal world and my morning commute doesn't take me across a swath of slithering pavement that was forged by the driving gods. No, I live in the real world surrounded by crappy public roads, SUV's piloted by distracted drivers, and an endless swath of monotone concrete that's always just a little bit overused and a little bit undermaintained.

The problem with the GT86 is on the page of a magazine it instills this wondrous excitement and boyhood fantasy that few cars in the price range can match. But when you transcribe the car from the page and onto your average urban road, it becomes a whole lot less....well, just less.

The issue as I see it is that cars like the Focus ST, Genesis Coupe and Mustang V6 may not reach the level of the GT86 on the pages of car and driver, but on the roads of America they posses more utility while still offering a little something special.

I test drove my FR-S for 40 minutes. That was 40 minutes of fun. I didn't spend that 40 minutes thinking about the other 1400 minutes in the day when I was going to the store or commuting to work.

My friend, when referencing my FR-S, said it would make an excellent track car. He was absolutely right, an excellent track car. If it was my second or third car, I'd still have it and still love it. But on a modest income, with room for only 1 car, I need something that's just a little bit less compromised. Perhaps I've just grown up...

I drove 10k miles over the course of 1 year with my FR-S, and I don't regret it. The car just wasn't the right fit for me, and I have a feeling there are lots of people like me who for one reason or the other took the plunge and only later realized that they didn't bring their swim trunks.


But this is usually always the case with sports cars. They are marvelous to think about, but only marginal to own

This is what I was trying to say. Yes.

[UltramarineLuck]

Originally Posted by eikond

I don't think you can make a fair comparison between any new car and a used car. Now you're comparing apples and oranges. Throw the entire topic out.. too many variables come into play (age, cleanliness, prior use/abuse, rust or damage, how many prior owners, WARRANTY - I know the motor would be void due to modification, but other warranty would still apply).

Sure you can pick up a 5 year old Cayman or an Elise for around $30k, but you can get a used FRS for under $20k.. You can get a used C6 Z06 for under $25k. You could get used 240sx for under $2k, put $23k into it and it would probably spank a Cayman.

Originally Posted by Davey

A $30K Elise is more like an '05, and those things are all death traps anyway. I would not even want to get in a low-speed collision with a Yaris in one.

I agree though that the used vs. new debate is out of place. New is new, used is not. How about a Ferrari 308 GTS we picked up for $40K, which are barely faster than the BRZ (or actually pretty close to dead even.) I'm sure that would be way less reliable than a FI BRZ.

You're both still missing the point - tell Chris Harris (and every other car reviewer in the world) that comparing cars based on platform and budget doesn't make sense because one is new and one isn't. They'll laugh at you.

People make these decisions every day in the course of all kinds of car buying, especially in the sporty/non-practical segment. To dismiss it altogether because one just rolled off the lot and the other didn't is to ignore that trend of used and CPO car valuations over the last decade - and it's certainly not a downward one.

The question I originally posed was not "Will a $25k Toyobaru make you as happy as a $35k Cayman?" The question was "For your situation, does it make sense to buy a $25k Toyobaru with plans to dump $10k in FI+supporting mods when you can get a Cayman for $35k?" The only thing I'm trying to do here is make people consider that.

Just saw this posted, too, which is another bit of extremely valuable insight. These are problems that a stock Cayman with no mods really won't ever face.

And again, re: the Elise, you're missing the point. It was simply an example that some may choose to look at, especially those looking for a second car that they don't need to rely on daily. Its viability/safety is irrelevant.

It may not apply to you, but it applies to someone.

[UltramarineLuck]

Originally Posted by Davey

So if I understand correctly, you didn't buy a Porsche because you want a new car but you think I should buy a used one, you're talking about IMS in a discussion about a 2009+ car, and you're talking about Crawford's 400+ HP turbo build when we're discussing a mild supercharged build which has been thoroughly tested at around ~270 whp and uses the stock clutch, fuel system, etc.

You are really not making a lot of sense here.

It's about context clues, but if I've gotta spell it out:

1. If I had $30k to spend, I'd have gotten a 987 Cayman. I decided to spend $22k, so I got the FR-S because you cannot get a nice (or any) 987 at that price range. New or old doesn't matter - pricing being equal, I'd have taken the used Cayman.

2. I threw the IMS discussion and Crawford car in there because they are examples of common failures in a used P car and FI 86, as a counter to your argument that issues must be "imagined" or speculative in nature, when that's simply not the case.

3. Where did you get to the mild supercharged kit? I'm talking strictly about people that want to spend $7k-$10k in mods (that would bring it in line with a nice, used 987 Cayman in terms of pricing).


Context, dude. You're trying to be weirdly specific, I'm talking with examples and general terms, because every person's situation is different, but many are similar.

[Davey]

Originally Posted by UltramarineLuck

It's about context clues, but if I've gotta spell it out:

1. If I had $30k to spend, I'd have gotten a 987 Cayman. I decided to spend $22k, so I got the FR-S because you cannot get a nice (or any) 987 at that price range. New or old doesn't matter - pricing being equal, I'd have taken the used Cayman.

2. I threw the IMS discussion and Crawford car in there because they are examples of common failures in a used P car and FI 86, as a counter to your argument that issues must be "imagined" or speculative in nature, when that's simply not the case.

3. Where did you get to the mild supercharged kit? I'm talking strictly about people that want to spend $7k-$10k in mods (that would bring it in line with a nice, used 987 Cayman in terms of pricing).


Context, dude. You're trying to be weirdly specific, I'm talking with examples and general terms, because every person's situation is different, but many are similar.

Yeah, I'm trying to be specific, because I'm talking about me, and my stupid car decisions. You're trying to be general, because you're trying to tell everyone what they should do.

I get your point, I just disagree with it.

[Davey]

Originally Posted by UltramarineLuck

You're both still missing the point - tell Chris Harris (and every other car reviewer in the world) that comparing cars based on platform and budget doesn't make sense because one is new and one isn't. They'll laugh at you.

Reviewers say whatever they're paid to think or whatever their own egos tell them to think. Try drawing your own conclusions and worry less about whether Chris Harris will laugh at you and more about what YOU want.

[UltramarineLuck]

Originally Posted by Davey

Yeah, I'm trying to be specific, because I'm talking about me, and my stupid car decisions. You're trying to be general, because you're trying to tell everyone what they should do.

I get your point, I just disagree with it.

No, I'm trying to offer some insight and tie that to what I would do.

Originally Posted by Davey

Reviewers say whatever they're paid to think or whatever their own egos tell them to think. Try drawing your own conclusions and worry less about whether Chris Harris will laugh at you and more about what YOU want.

Someone doesn't know anything about the journalism field.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/25/au...verpriced.html

[Davey]

Originally Posted by UltramarineLuck

No, I'm trying to offer some insight and tie that to what I would do.

And you are.... ????


And I should care because... ????

Someone doesn't know anything about the journalism field.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/25/au...verpriced.html

Yes, you're right. Because you found one negative review of a car on the Internet, that means all automotive journlism is unbiased and truthful. How could I have been so wrong.

[UltramarineLuck]

Originally Posted by Davey

And you are.... ????


And I should care because... ????






Yes, you're right. Because you found one negative review of a car on the Internet, that means all automotive journlism is unbiased and truthful. How could I have been so wrong.

You shouldn't and you don't have to - but I'm offering it up as a point of consideration for anyone who is interested in buying the car and getting a realistic view of it. It's not for everyone and it's not intended to be, sweet Davey, and that's okay.


That's just one example that's getting a good amount of press right now. I could list a bazillion negative reviews of cars - they're out there if you open your eyes. But hey, ignorance is bliss. If you don't know how auto journalism/PR works, that's on you.

[Davey]

Originally Posted by UltramarineLuck

That's just one example that's getting a good amount of press right now. I could list a bazillion negative reviews of cars - they're out there if you open your eyes. But hey, ignorance is bliss. If you don't know how auto journalism/PR works, that's on you.

Yeah, how it works is if you want to keep getting cars, you don't say bad things about the cars. I know how PR works, it's how you lie for a living but aren't technically in sales.

But you keep living in your dream world where you can believe everything you read.

[UltramarineLuck]

Originally Posted by Davey

Yeah, how it works is if you want to keep getting cars, you don't say bad things about the cars. I know how PR works, it's how you lie for a living but aren't technically in sales.

But you keep living in your dream world where you can believe everything you read.

Lol keep telling yourself that, man. You might want to clue in some auto journos, though, not many have gotten that hint, yet.

[Davey]

Originally Posted by UltramarineLuck

Lol keep telling yourself that, man. You might want to clue in some auto journos, though, not many have gotten that hint, yet.

Don't give me that off-topic BS, you're the one who brought it up!

Let's get back to the point... I essentially said that there are no other new cars for $40K or less that I would rather have than the FR-S/BRZ.

I'm not considering used cars, and I really don't care if auto journalists think I should be.

I would consider a CPO used car, but a quick look at Autotrader shows that a CPO Cayman is well out of that $40K budget.

Now what?

[MVJ1975]

I've had my FR-S for two years now. I love it even more than the day I drove it off the lot, and I still give it a fond glance when I leave it in the commuter lot every weekday morning.

It's the perfect car for me at this time in my life. It's not terribly expensive, so I can daily drive it and not feel bad. Tires and gas are light on the pocketbook. It's got just enough practicality; I do indeed use the backseats for my kids and the trunk holds all my stuff for my regular trips to Pennsylvania and to the range.

I live in suburban hell. 35mph speed limits, stoplights everywhere, and people doing five under abound. And yet, here the car excels. You can have an absolutely blast with it at 35mph. I love that you can stand on the gas pedal in full view of a County policeman and he won't even give you a second glance. It's low-speed silliness, all day long. If it weren't for other cars, I'd almost never touch the brakes. Near corner, downshift, let it glide, toss it in, punch the throttle, away we go! This has yet to get old.

Nothing is perfect for everyone, of course. The car is slow. Should be obvious, that. The suspension is stiff; it's a sports car. There's not much sound deadening, so it's going to be on the loud side (I don't notice because I keep the stereo blasting Kylie Minogue at 30. I'm sure my neighbors hate me.). You aren't getting large adults in the backseat. The interior is purposeful, and well laid out, with fantastic seats, but you can tell it's a $25k car.

In the end, that's what it is - a $25k sports car that emphasizes fun above all else. It doesn't try to beat the Mustang or anything else at its game; to try to do so would be a fool's errand.

On the subject of Caymans, once I no longer have small kids that need backseat space... the FR-S gets to be my son's FR-S and my rear will be in a 981!

[UltramarineLuck]

Originally Posted by Davey

Don't give me that off-topic BS, you're the one who brought it up!

Let's get back to the point... I essentially said that there are no other new cars for $40K or less that I would rather have than the FR-S/BRZ.

I'm not considering used cars, and I really don't care if auto journalists think I should be.

I would consider a CPO used car, but a quick look at Autotrader shows that a CPO Cayman is well out of that $40K budget.

Now what?

The OP obviously doesn't apply to you, so why bother replying at all? ~it is a mystery~

We could talk about it in circles for days, but I've already said that the OP is not the bible, I just wanted to offer some things for consideration for a certain group of people, to which you clearly do not belong.

[Davey]

Originally Posted by UltramarineLuck

The OP obviously doesn't apply to you, so why bother replying at all? ~it is a mystery~

That's cool. I'm replying because there a counterpoint to your OP that applies to me, and may apply to others, the part which says, "Consider the alternatives."

I'm saying, consider the alternatives, but consider what you can change vs. what you can't when you're considering them, if they don't exactly meet your needs.

I agree that if you're looking for the fastest car you can get for $40K this isn't the smart choice, but depending on what is important to you, the alternatives may be pretty dismal.