Spec Ft86 racer in the future?

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by CSG David

In 86 Cup, we're already thinking of ideas of bringing a Spec class together for TA purposes but not W2W. W2W is a whole other ball game...

But the TMG GT86 has TTX!!!!!1!11111

[ayau]

Originally Posted by blackhawkdown

this sounds like it would be a fun race program to get into. sounds cheap anyways.

And to actually be competitive, you'll have to spend way more than just 10-15k. Look at F1, there's a reason why top tier teams stay at the top. Even if they have the best driver in the world, the team with more money will just hire him.

[blackhawkdown]

racing is never cheap

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by mav1178

http://www.toyota-motorsport.com/mot...s_2013_car.pdf

Basically this car is a standard FRS, with:

• Full FIA cage
• Car lift support brackets
• Hood quick release system
• TMG exhaust
• Ohlins TTX36 coilovers
• Project Mu 999 pads
• Steel-braided lines
• Brake ducts
• OZ 17" racing wheels
• Pirelli DH slicks 245/620-17
• FIA-approved bucket seat
• 6-point harness
• racing wheel
• FIA-approved fire extinguisher system

For any "spec series" racer, this is a checklist of what you should have on your car to start. For the asking price over a normal GT86 (around 29K Euros for a GT86 or BRZ), ~€10k isn't a lot considering the above list of mods that will make your car track-ready.

I mean, for that markup you're getting a full cage, seats, AND Ohlins TTX! Times like this, I wish I lived in Europe.

-alex

Looks like $62,500 for the car including what you've listed as coming on/with it, and another $18,650 if you max the option/required list, including four sets of the 17" wheels without the $5-6K of rubber you'll need to put on them. Throw in the minimum spares you'll want to carry and you'll be within shouting distance of $100K. No surprise.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by dradernh

Looks like $62,500 for the car including what you've listed as coming on/with it, and another $18,650 if you max the option/required list...

Is it? I haven't spec'd it out completely.

But still, if one were to run a spec series off this car, the TMG GT86 is a baseline car to compare against from a mod/safety perspective.

-alex

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by mav1178

Is it? I haven't spec'd it out completely.

But still, if one were to run a spec series off this car, the TMG GT86 is a baseline car to compare against from a mod/safety perspective.

-alex

I think so, but may have misunderstood you. I just converted the Euro pricing on the TMG order sheet to dollars, and think that you were saying that your bullet list was included in their €45,815 price for the car. I didn't mean that's what it would cost to build the same thing here - I believe it would be quite a bit less, especially once the 19% VAT is subtracted.

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by mav1178

But the TMG GT86 has TTX!!!!!1!11111

Yup. That and Project Mu 999. Looks like someone knows what a good brake pad is. Freaking jacked our setup too.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by dradernh

I think so, but may have misunderstood you. I just converted the Euro pricing on the TMG order sheet to dollars, and think that you were saying that your bullet list was included in their €45,815 price for the car. I didn't mean that's what it would cost to build the same thing here - I believe it would be quite a bit less, especially once the 19% VAT is subtracted.

aah, I used the €38xxx price as comparison (before VAT) versus the ~€29900 price of a GT86 from a dealer as reference.

The parts listed above are included in the €38xx-45xxx price. Hence my calculation of markup of around $10K US for the mods listed. Even at $15K US that's a hell of a deal!

-alex

[CSG David]

Ehh...Spec 86 class for TA would be a gentleman's agreement. Certainly a package can be developed, but there's no way to really regulate guys who go out of their ways to tune their ECUs or put any secret mods in.

Would people be interested in this setup?

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by CSG David

Ehh...Spec 86 class for TA would be a gentleman's agreement. Certainly a package can be developed, but there's no way to really regulate guys who go out of their ways to tune their ECUs or put any secret mods in.

Would people be interested in this setup?

I think it's possible to do a spec series but leave some mods "free"

Example:

Your car has to meet 95db sound limit, using stock airbox and stock filter element or drop-in. Or you can do FI mods but then you'd have to cap certain things.

Car has to weigh minimum 2900lbs with driver and 1/2 tank of gas. And perhaps mandate cage (or at minimum harness bar + safety restraints).

Something like that... it won't be much different than 86 Cup from a rules perspective, and you can theoretically run both series.

-alex

[phastafrican]

It's tough to police any spec series without having an impound after every race to dyno and weigh the cars, as well as inspect all mods. That said, it can be done. The biggest challenge, above all else, is getting car counts up. For TA, this is a bit easier as any average Joe can show up with their car at any track event. When it comes to a SPEC86 w2w series, driving 300-700 miles to a race track to find only one other competitor will not be acceptable by any stretch of the imagination. Hell, you need at least 3 to even have a chance to earn some contingency if you win. Having a SPEC86 car that isn't competitive in another class at the event you're at would also be time wasted (don't count the money... this is the only sport where we take money and literally burn it up in fuel, brakes, and tires... unless smoking becomes a sport).

Racing is an incredibly expensive hobby, with very little reward... but it can be managed. Outside of major repairs, I've had a $10k/year racing budget for the last 4 years and have done well to stay within those limits (granted i raced and drove slower cars... '85 GTI and '92 miata with cheaper consumables, bought discounted used parts, begged for free parts and sponsorships, rented out the car when possible, etc.). I quit racing for the year once the money was depleted and worked hard towards the next year. That said, I've factored in $1000 per event for this year, and my event count is about to double as I move next month to North Florida where I will then be racing in both the Southeast and Florida regions.

A spec series can be a completely stock unmodified car. Sell the parts from your car interior and buy the safety equipment you need. Everyone on completely stock equipment equalizes all the cars. Its not the most fun, but everyone will be in the same equipment. GAZOO racing's one-make 86/brz, the NZ Toyota TR 86 championship, and the TMG GT86 cup, all have great rule sets that can be adapted for a US SPEC86. Personally, I feel the "mods list" are less important than actually getting the car "race legal". Oh, and there's this tiny insignificant detail there about going through some form of racing school or hpde program to get your racing license.

The bottom line: Find me 10 people with wheel to wheel racing license who 1) are ready to walk away from their car today in a 3 car pileup that wasn't their fault, 2) can commit $5000 to a roll cage and safety equipment for wheel to wheel racing, and 3) are willing to spend $1000/ month (for entry fees, gas, consumables, etc.) and we will have a SPEC86 series that can race at with various NASA Regional events within a month. The toughest part of it all is the mental decision to come to terms with the fact that this $25k car could turn into a pile of scrap in a minute, and being "okay" with that.

Until then, be sure to enjoy things like Redline Time attack, Global Time Attack, and whatever other timed event is closest to your region. Because that's the closest thing to a SPEC86 that is around.

PS: There's more wheel to wheel action at certain time trial events than in a boring race by yourself. And after reading it over, I sense the bottom line might sound a bit presumptuous. Pardon me for that if you take it that way. You can disregard my post and let's continue the discussion, just sharing my opinion.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by SubiePig

I look forward to these cars turning into a spec car.
I think a header back, coils of some form(non adjustable valving and a set spring rate), Adjustable sway bars, any brake pads with ducting, 225 hoosiers, basically same as Spec miata/E30 would make a perfect set of base rules for it.

Purple crack is expensive. SCCA Spec Miata runs on crack, NASA Spec Miata/Spec E30 runs on Toyo RRs.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by icemang17

without a doubt there will be a spec series for these cars. Its just a matter of when and what the "spec" parts list is?

That is my goal, I fully understand that a "real" race car safety system is required, that's required no matter what. The variables are MANY after that...SO many things that affect cost and performance....

Since work got in the way of finishing my original post I will continue

Exhaust: I'd say stock headers and anything after that is free, but will require some type of cat bypass electronics so the ECU doesn't go crazy. Of course sound limits are an issue?

Driveline: All stock, must run stock flywheel and stock clutch or an approved version. Must run stock driveshaft and rear diff with stock ratios.

ECU: Must run stock calibration, with only the cat bypass mod....

Alignment: This also depends on the suspension package. Use as many stock parts as possible, but might need aftermarket parts to get a good range of adjust-ability.

Ride Height-track width: There will be limits to both, something lower than stock, but not silly low, riding on bump stops all day isn't the goal.

minimum weight: Another variable, figure a 200lb driver and 20lbs of fuel, plus all safety equipment without having to insanely gut the car....so this is still pending

Electrical: I like the idea of a minimum weight battery to keep costs down, we don't need 4lb Ion batteries....must run stock alt, starter, ignition etc

Aero: None pure stock only, BUT that means the BRZ wing can be ran on the FRS or no wing on BRZ etc.

Fuel: Must run 91 octance (or 93 if 91 is not available) unleaded. No race fuel or fuel additives

Oiling system: No dry sump, This gets complicated, but I would say any oil cooler and accusump system are allowed. Since the goal is reliability.

Cooling: Must run stock radiator. With near stock power levels its fine.

Other: I know lots of people are going to want all kinds of upgrades to the car...carbon fiber this and that, but that is not the point of a spec series. Spec Series are popular because of LOW COST with low running costs. Its not about the speed of the car, but no matter what it will be much faster than Spec Miata or Spec E30.

An example, Spec Z (350 Z) is not really taking off. Why the "spec" is too expensive, big tires, big brakes all equal huge running costs and a FAT car doesn't help either.

Bottom line is this, most racers that aren't married to a certain "marque" don't want to spend more than about $20-30k tops. That means a built competitive car, our cars are not there yet. They need to depreciate more to build a fun to race in field. The other HUGE variable is running costs....our cars should have low running costs due to huge volume of parts shared across other platforms.

My goal of this thread is to start discussion of suitable parts combos and reasons behind it. I have connections to NASA and can easily help develop an approved FT86 class with them, since their only goal is one thing "how many cars will race"

I think you have a pretty good handle on it. I can tell you other things you need to consider is any rule you make needs to be easily verifyable or to be able to be checked by a series director. If you are going to allow ECUs to be reflashed for O2 sensor elimination, then people are going to try and run tunes and might try to get away with E85 as well. SpecE30 runs a spec exhaust from a single supplier. It is a relatively crappy, but extremely cheap exhaust as there really are no other exhausts available for E30s. Leaving exhaust open like in Spec Miata sounds nice since there are tons of options, but eventually racers will decide which one makes the most money and only buy that one which may make prices creep up on it. I like keeping the Aero OEM. I also agree that the partnership with SpecZ and NISMO means that the required parts to race are pricey, but the advantage is that the contingency from Nissan and BFG is way better than what we have in SpecE30 where we don't even get a free tire from Toyo for winning a race with 20+ cars in class.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

If this is something you're pursuing seriously then you should look at the PRO3 class in the PacNW. It's like Spec E30 with just a bit less "spec". This was a class that was designed by the racers and the ruleset is managed by them (not the sanctioning body!). A primary function of the ruleset is to A) allow the car to work better then a Spec E30 and B) keep costs down.
PDF: Scroll to page 69, Section C 1316 PRO3 and read that.
http://static.squarespace.com/static..._2014_full.pdf

I think you'll find it to be a damn near perfect template for developing Spec 86 or PRO86 or whatever.

I like the PRO3 series, but I still prefer the simpler and cheaper SpecE30 series. There has been very little cost creep in the years I have been involved and generally the rules changes are only to improve the longevity of the car like finally allowing non OEM style rockers as I have seen many a rocker break at the track.