CSG and RCE tag-team suspension Q&A thread! Ask us anything!

[chadori]

@CSG Mike and @Racecomp Engineering

after more research, I would like some clarification on whether or not I'm grasping the concepts of certain aspects regarding an alignment for the circuit

in a nutshell,

- slightly more negative camber in the front than the rears
- positive caster (for braking response?)
- toe out for the front
- toe in for the rear

as for specific alignment specs, does that come down to what tire size/ wheel size?

How different would it be for someone running a stagger 18x8.5/18x9.5 (245-265 tire) versus 17x8 (225 tire) all around?
- for the bigger tire/wheel setup, would that require an amplification in alignment specs?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by chadori

@CSG Mike and @Racecomp Engineering

after more research, I would like some clarification on whether or not I'm grasping the concepts of certain aspects regarding an alignment for the circuit

in a nutshell,

- slightly more negative camber in the front than the rears
- positive caster (for braking response?)
- toe out for the front
- toe in for the rear

as for specific alignment specs, does that come down to what tire size/ wheel size?

How different would it be for someone running a stagger 18x8.5/18x9.5 (245-265 tire) versus 17x8 (225 tire) all around?
- for the bigger tire/wheel setup, would that require an amplification in alignment specs?

I generally recommend zero toe for people with experience, and slight toe-in on the rear for people with less experience or confidence.

We have not played with staggered tires enough to give accurate feedback.

Larger tires will not require you to "amplify" the alignment specs.

Each setup is different, and you'll get best results by using the proper tools to determine what is right for you (pyrometer, air pressure gauge)

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by fooddude

Here's a different kinda question, maybe good, maybe not, idk lol:

What makes KW so good and unique, as a company and a quality product?

Before I got on these forums, I've been totally absent/uninformed of car knowledge/research/scene since 2001'ish; so I wasn't aware of the KW brand till recently joining these forums...I was only aware of the jdm brands (tein, hks, rsr, tanabe, greddy, etc., etc) that have been around forever, and also the german and other mainstream stuff (bilstein, koni, kyb, etc.)

Yes, I now know they are highly regarded and good quality..but mainly from this website and from acclaimed reviews. That, and knowing that they are German built (heck, anything made by Japan and Germany is the best stuff, right? hehe), is pretty much the only thing I know about them.

Just wanting to know how quality they really are, and how they stack up to...compared to the more known super high quality brands...like Bilstein, oem brands (Showa, Sachs), etc. ..and, also, the lower quality (but still good lol) aftermarket stuff, like Tein, HKS, Tanabe, RSR).

Just trying to gauge them, and want to know how high of quality their products/materials/r&d/qc/etc. really are and where they stack/rank up against the best...since I honestly and admittedly have no idea really.

Maybe in easier words: Which is higher quality? KW or Bilstein(good german company)? KW or Tein/Cusco/RSR/HKS(good gauge for japanese quality)?

I'm not asking for performance primarily (since this can be super subjective)....just asking about quality in general and overall - materials used, R&D, QC, reliability, OEM'ness, etc.

Maybe links to nice videos, advertisements, links, etc?


.

KW I believe was started by a former Koni engineer in the early 90's. They were just getting into the US scene around 2000 and weren't very well known here until 2005 and later. Very active and successful in WTCC, FIA GT, ALMS, and other sports car series.

All I can say is that there's no need to rank everything the way you seem to want to do. Bilstein is good. KW is good. Their build quality is roughly the same. Other stuff is good too. Not much point in deciding which has the richest history and the most satisfying reputation to you. Don't pick a favorite. Hell, I don't have a favorite. I just look at what they offer and find something that matches my needs and budget.

- Andy

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by chadori

@CSG Mike and @Racecomp Engineering

after more research, I would like some clarification on whether or not I'm grasping the concepts of certain aspects regarding an alignment for the circuit

in a nutshell,

- slightly more negative camber in the front than the rears
- positive caster (for braking response?)
- toe out for the front
- toe in for the rear

as for specific alignment specs, does that come down to what tire size/ wheel size?

How different would it be for someone running a stagger 18x8.5/18x9.5 (245-265 tire) versus 17x8 (225 tire) all around?
- for the bigger tire/wheel setup, would that require an amplification in alignment specs?

Agree with what CSG Mike said, but I'll add...

I'd avoid staggered tires.

Generally, more roll means you need more camber. So that means you need more with sticky tires and/or if you don't have much roll resistance.

- Andy

[ATL BRZ]

Okay it's time for me to try and narrow down to one of the two choices I've been pondering for a while.

1. Tein Mono Sport - Single adjustable over a much wider range than ever before - 8k/9k springs - $1780



This is a brand new coilover so its tough to get real opinions on it but they're gaining interest over in this thread. They are basically an updated Mono Flex with better construction and a wider damping adjustment range through some trick valving (Advance M.S.V), which is the first of it's kind. The softs are softer and the stiffs are stiffer.

Pros: Cheaper. Camber plates included in front. "Easy" simultaneous compression and rebound adjustment with a wide range of damping adjustment. Adjust ride height without changing stroke length. High quality inverted monotube construction and durable finish. EDCS compatibility for even easier adjustment and active speed and G-based control of damper settings. Serviceable in the US. Assuming there's a warranty as well.

Cons: Not double adjustable. Can't think of anything else..

I've driven on single adjustable Koni yellows when I had my 944's but I never actually played around with them. I just set it and forget it. Now that I'm doing more HPDE's I want to start playing around with damper settings but I'm not sure I'm to the point in my driving skills yet that I want to jump right into a 2-way damper.

CSG Mike seems to think one may eventually out grow the Mono Sports after tracking with then consistently but I'm not sure that I agree with that. Just because it's single adjustable? I'm also not sure why the Mono Sport is any less "trackable" than the T2 considering the MS comes with stiffer springs, but I know there's more to it than just spring rates (valving/construction/etc)...


2. RCE Tarmac II Clubsport - Double adjustable with 7k springs front and rear - $2299



RCE are my favorite forum vendor for suspension parts on this platform. Myles and Andy are awesome dudes and always there to help.

Pros: Double adjustable, high quality construction and finish, lifetime warranty and excellent vendor support.

Cons: More expensive, Camber plates not included, Not as simple to adjust damper settings and dial the car in and out of street/track settings. No EDCS or similar compatibility.

I'd love to stay loyal to RCE and find a good reason to keep saving for the T2's but I know with stock top mounts I'd only get like -1.5* front camber using the slotted upper mounts. I'd end up wanting more camber and adjustability and then need to drop $500-$600 on a nice pair of Cas/Cam plates, bringing it close to $3k invested. I'm not sure I'd take full advantage of the double adjustability of the T2. I'd probably set it and forget it without much tweaking between track days.

I'm not a suspension tuning expert but I know with either choice I'd have experts here willing to help. Part of me wants to suck it up and go T2 but I'm having a hard time justifying it right now for my application. The Mono Sport just seems like a better value for me. I feel like Tein is as proven of a brand as KW and they are both high quality. Tein seems to have some cool new tricks up their sleeve with the Mono Sport. The EDCS is very cool, I'd love to be able to switch from street comfort mode to track attack mode with the push of a button. It may even make me quit being lazy and actually start fine tuning the damper settings for those extra tenths if and when I start timing myself.

Right now my car is a dual purpose street/track car. It's staying that way for the foreseeable future. I love doing HPDE's and instructing with my car as a classroom on wheels. I want the best value AND ease of use coilover for my application without sacrificing quality. That said, I'm still leaning towards the Tein Mono Sport. Feedback/comments?

I feel like I'm cheating on my SO by seriously considering a non-RCE coilover, lol

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

Now that I'm doing more HPDE's I want to start playing around with damper settings but I'm not sure I'm to the point in my driving skills yet that I want to jump right into a 2-way damper.

Are you willing to buy 1-ways now and then buy 2-ways later? Do you think that you'll eventually end up with 2-ways? Do you want more adjustments to play with, now or later? If yes to any of those, get 2-ways now.

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

Right now my car is a dual purpose street/track car. It's staying that way for the foreseeable future. I love doing HPDE's and instructing with my car as a classroom on wheels. I want the best value AND ease of use coilover for my application without sacrificing quality.

Get 1-ways.

My 2¢.

[fooddude]

@ATL BRZ:
I'm kinda in the same boat too ...HKS SP or Mono Sport or RCE T2

RCE for sure sound the best for quality, versatility future advanced capability and driver progression. Can't beat the LifeTime warranty too! ...that's a really bold thing to do for a suspension company and instantly tells you it'll be top quality and they'll look out after you.

As for HKS SP...it's too darn new..so not many, if any, real world reviews yet.

I can add some pros and cons that may or may not interest you:

Tein cons: After researching on google, their powder coat/paint seems to easily chip off over time, introducing rust. I noticed their higher end SRC and N1 have a better anodized finish that doesn't chip off...but all the pics of used Mono series coilovers with their chipped paint and rust concerns me and really puts me off. It's like you're expected to touch up the paint every year or so with a spray can.

RCE pros: It appears to have a much more durable finish. And Takumi uses these coilovers. And, I wouldn't put "not simple to adjust" as a con; I am sure they'll help and give you quick and easy settings for both street and track use to start out with. Then it'll be up to you to tune from that, if you ever need/want to.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

Okay it's time for me to try and narrow down to one of the two choices I've been pondering for a while.

1. Tein Mono Sport - Single adjustable over a much wider range than ever before - 8k/9k springs - $1780



This is a brand new coilover so its tough to get real opinions on it but they're gaining interest over in this thread. They are basically an updated Mono Flex with better construction and a wider damping adjustment range through some trick valving (Advance M.S.V), which is the first of it's kind. The softs are softer and the stiffs are stiffer.

Pros: Cheaper. Camber plates included in front. "Easy" simultaneous compression and rebound adjustment with a wide range of damping adjustment. Adjust ride height without changing stroke length. High quality inverted monotube construction and durable finish. EDCS compatibility for even easier adjustment and active speed and G-based control of damper settings. Serviceable in the US. Assuming there's a warranty as well.

Cons: Not double adjustable. Can't think of anything else..

I've driven on single adjustable Koni yellows when I had my 944's but I never actually played around with them. I just set it and forget it. Now that I'm doing more HPDE's I want to start playing around with damper settings but I'm not sure I'm to the point in my driving skills yet that I want to jump right into a 2-way damper.

CSG Mike seems to think one may eventually out grow the Mono Sports after tracking with then consistently but I'm not sure that I agree with that. Just because it's single adjustable? I'm also not sure why the Mono Sport is any less "trackable" than the T2 considering the MS comes with stiffer springs, but I know there's more to it than just spring rates (valving/construction/etc)...


2. RCE Tarmac II Clubsport - Double adjustable with 7k springs front and rear - $2299



RCE are my favorite forum vendor for suspension parts on this platform. Myles and Andy are awesome dudes and always there to help.

Pros: Double adjustable, high quality construction and finish, lifetime warranty and excellent vendor support.

Cons: More expensive, Camber plates not included, Not as simple to adjust damper settings and dial the car in and out of street/track settings. No EDCS or similar compatibility.

I'd love to stay loyal to RCE and find a good reason to keep saving for the T2's but I know with stock top mounts I'd only get like -1.5* front camber using the slotted upper mounts. I'd end up wanting more camber and adjustability and then need to drop $500-$600 on a nice pair of Cas/Cam plates, bringing it close to $3k invested. I'm not sure I'd take full advantage of the double adjustability of the T2. I'd probably set it and forget it without much tweaking between track days.

I'm not a suspension tuning expert but I know with either choice I'd have experts here willing to help. Part of me wants to suck it up and go T2 but I'm having a hard time justifying it right now for my application. The Mono Sport just seems like a better value for me. I feel like Tein is as proven of a brand as KW and they are both high quality. Tein seems to have some cool new tricks up their sleeve with the Mono Sport. The EDCS is very cool, I'd love to be able to switch from street comfort mode to track attack mode with the push of a button. It may even make me quit being lazy and actually start fine tuning the damper settings for those extra tenths if and when I start timing myself.

Right now my car is a dual purpose street/track car. It's staying that way for the foreseeable future. I love doing HPDE's and instructing with my car as a classroom on wheels. I want the best value AND ease of use coilover for my application without sacrificing quality. That said, I'm still leaning towards the Tein Mono Sport. Feedback/comments?

I feel like I'm cheating on my SO by seriously considering a non-RCE coilover, lol

Several things:

I ran my T2's 30mm lower than stock with Group-n front mounts and stock rear mounts on 500 lb springs and with the SLOTTED front struts I got -2.65 front camber. My car ran a respectable 1.27.1 around summit point main course and 180 whp.

We provide a very specific setting that I found to work VERY well and many others have commented that it was "spot on". I did this and spent that time …JUST for the "set it and forget it" guys. So you can get it in, and get going and NOT fumble with settings.

The KW's have a LOT of bump travel so running them at 30mm lower or less works out fine.

So without plates you only need group-n fronts and T2's. Since you are a repeat customer you can expect me to help you out on price. Support wise you can call me anytime of the night or weekend, holiday or if I am in Estoril testing with McLaren ( this happened a few months ago ) I answer my phone.

( easy button )

I will start writing up your order now..



Nah. JK. I do think you would like them and be happy and go faster than now.

Myles

[SubieNate]

You can always have rce set compression damping for you, learn how to tweak the rebound to your liking and driving style, then move up to seeing both yourself.

Cheers
Nathan

[ATL BRZ]

Originally Posted by fooddude

Tein cons: After researching on google, their powder coat/paint seems to easily chip off over time, introducing rust. I noticed their higher end SRC and N1 have a better anodized finish that doesn't chip off...but all the pics of used Mono series coilovers with their chipped paint and rust concerns me and really puts me off. It's like you're expected to touch up the paint every year or so with a spray can.

I haven't heard of any coating/rust issues recently with the Teins.

I know it's biased quoting their site, but this seems pretty comprehensive:

9. Thoroughgoing Rust-Proofing!
Upper mounts and lower brackets are coated with rich TEIN green powder paint. This powder paint has high coating film strength, is highly durable yet is low-pollution due to non-use of harmful solvent. After the shot blasting pre-treatment, the patented "2-layer/1-bake" treatment using anti-rust powder paint is applied for superior durability and high corrosion resistance. (Patent No. 4347712)

On shell case, TEIN's self-developed one-of-a-kind "ZT Coating" is applied, for tougher protection against chipping, often caused by bounced pebbles, and rust. With zero claim rate, against adhesion, out of 500,000dampers sold, we are confident that people living in snowfall area or near seashores would even be very satisfied.

[ATL BRZ]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Several things:

I ran my T2's 30mm lower than stock with Group-n front mounts and stock rear mounts on 500 lb springs and with the SLOTTED front struts I got -2.65 front camber. My car ran a respectable 1.27.1 around summit point main course and 180 whp.

We provide a very specific setting that I found to work VERY well and many others have commented that it was "spot on". I did this and spent that time …JUST for the "set it and forget it" guys. So you can get it in, and get going and NOT fumble with settings.

The KW's have a LOT of bump travel so running them at 30mm lower or less works out fine.

So without plates you only need group-n fronts and T2's. Since you are a repeat customer you can expect me to help you out on price. Support wise you can call me anytime of the night or weekend, holiday or if I am in Estoril testing with McLaren ( this happened a few months ago ) I answer my phone.

( easy button )

I will start writing up your order now..



Nah. JK. I do think you would like them and be happy and go faster than now.

Myles

I can't quit you bro! Sending you an email.

[Turkish]

Originally Posted by ATL BRZ

I can't quit you bro! Sending you an email.

Sorry for the , but Brokeback BRZ lol

[gramicci101]

Whoa whoa whoa, hold up.

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

or if I am in Estoril testing with McLaren ( this happened a few months ago )

What? Pics? Story? Did you get any cool McLaren memorabilia? You're designing the suspension for their new F1 car?

[Turkish]

@Racecomp Engineering: I am considering these bad boys for fixing my front camber issues:



http://www.racecompengineering.com/i...-lowering.html

How do they compare to the Raceseng top hats which are the other top hats I am considering for my needs. Keep in mind that my car pulls double duty for autocross and daily driving. I assume both will experience premature wear as a result of the daily driving...



http://ft86speedfactory.com/raceseng...ates-1293.html