Fortune Auto Dreadnaught Pro Gen5 - anyone tried it on the track with feedbacks?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by glamcem

nope it should be around $7900 or so IIRC ..I am sure someone could benefit from having those ultra high end coilovers for timed events or Pro Racing but I personally think the gains are marginal for all others.." I am one of the strong believers of the term diminishing returns" and think it applies for many folks here

I also like to get bang for the buck mods, cars ... maybe you'll agree with me on this one, many of the European brands are highly overpriced (same applies to cars) I am not bashing their quality or anything just feel that some of them cost more than what they actually should... what's even funnier is it is the complete opposite in Europe good luck getting a Mustang for cheap and maintain..

Diminishing returns doesn't start until you get to the 6k+ mark with dampers.

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Alright. I have to ask. How much suspension knowledge do you actually have?

I hate to come off aggressive toward another vendor, but when you're making broad statements like that in a performance oriented subforum, clarifications need to be made.

First off, are you dealers for any of the "high end brands" that you purport FA to compete with? JRZ, Ohlins, AST, Moton, MCS, Penske, Sachs?

Can you explain to me, in detail, how noiseover point on a damper affects the vehicle? Can you explain to me the actual effective differences between a twin tube and monotube damper?

Now the most important question. How are these FA Dreadnaughts superior to the "microadjustment" 10k+ suspension? The high end stuff has an entry point of 4k, retail, including camber plates and mounts. Do you even understand what the adjustments are for and how they work?


Honestly, based on looking at your website, you guys push mostly MCS, and offer a few other suspensions that are readily available to anyone with an account at the wholesale outlets.

Do you guys even do any R&D with the products you sell?



Do you put in high octane in your Ralliart? Why bother? You don't need the octane 90% of the time you drive. I hope you get my point.

I'm happy you asked, I'll gladly elaborate.

I have had lengthy discussions with Jeff about his car, how often he tracks, aero setup (future aero setup), tires, etc. While high-end and high-priced JRZ, Ohlins or Moton 3 or 4 way adjustable setup would be amazing on a strictly track car, most enthusiasts aren't equipped to handle adjusting these. These types of coilovers primarily reside with actual racing teams that have a suspension engineer on-staff who dial in the car on very expensive equipment, custom tuned for every track. While there is a place for these with some enthusiasts, and we do sell them - I have Jeff’s best interest as my priority and considering he has to daily drive his car, I don't think that he’s going to want to have to change his setup from track, to street, back to track, adjust per separate tracks, you get my point. Not to mention, he would never make full use out of one of those systems negating any benefits.

Why do I recommended the FA 2-Way Dreadnoughts? We will get a large amount of adjustment with a very high-quality system that won’t break the bank and still be very reasonable when he drives home from the track. The only thing I have to tackle is the rear camber setup since there aren't plates but there are many options that we can do so I’m not worried.

For one, we track designed a set of DSG spec'd coilovers for the EvoX platform that have been a major success and yes, I do know the differences between a twin-tube and monotube setup but with enough searching, so can anyone else so I don’t see your point in questioning my knowledge.

I never said they are superior but that does not take away from their quality either. Frankly, they are very different coils and if the bottom line is if Jeff wants JRZ or Ohlins, that’s what we’ll get him ( and yes we do carry them ) but I try to offer what is more suitable for his car. He has a long list of things we still need to get and I don’t think him spending his budget on something he doesn't really need is necessary. It’s obviously better for us to push a $7000-$10000 system financially but it’s not what we do unless we feel that the customer will actually be using it. We only sell quality, but we also try to direct the customer to what would work with only their best interest in mind.

In no way am I saying FA is better (or worse) than JRZ, Ohlins, or “insert brand” but we've been doing this long enough and have sold 100’s of sets of coilovers to be comfortable enough to offer our customers what we feel is the best choice for them. We are here only rather to aid our customers and future clients in any way that we can. What I am not here to do is get into a technical battle with you by flexing our knowledge on “dampers” against one another.


@RehabJeff86

[RehabJeff86]

Thank you CSG Mike, DSG Jason, and glamcem for all valuable advise and discussion. Finding a right set of suspension is a painstaking process and I feel like lots of guess work in place and I can only base on the company's reputation, wish I have the luxury to drive all different set up to make a decision, but dialing in process is also extremely crucial - i can have a set of 10k suspension but not able to dial in right and it will drive like poop...

I agreed with Jason@DSG, I don't want to not-stop changing setting between track to track or track to street or street to track ... hahah say that fast 10x ..... hopefully i can dial in to a magic setting and just leave it there.

Im not considering competition/racing, this is mainly for enjoying frequent HPDE/Tracking experience say like 10-15x per year.... but once again thanks for all the valuable inputs!!

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by RehabJeff86

Im not considering competition/racing, this is mainly for enjoying frequent HPDE/Tracking experience say like 10-15x per year.... but once again thanks for all the valuable inputs!!

Exactly! That's what my point was all along. I'm always here to help bud, after seeing your lapping skillz today I'm pretty pumped to see any non-stock suspension on your ride.

[CSG David]

Wow. One setting is perfect for everything? I wonder why adjustments are even necessary to begin with. FA should just produce a non-adjustable set then instead of marketing the 2-way, 3-way, 4-way, etc.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

I'm happy you asked, I'll gladly elaborate.

I have had lengthy discussions with Jeff about his car, how often he tracks, aero setup (future aero setup), tires, etc. While high-end and high-priced JRZ, Ohlins or Moton 3 or 4 way adjustable setup would be amazing on a strictly track car, most enthusiasts aren't equipped to handle adjusting these. These types of coilovers primarily reside with actual racing teams that have a suspension engineer on-staff who dial in the car on very expensive equipment, custom tuned for every track. While there is a place for these with some enthusiasts, and we do sell them - I have Jeff’s best interest as my priority and considering he has to daily drive his car, I don't think that he’s going to want to have to change his setup from track, to street, back to track, adjust per separate tracks, you get my point. Not to mention, he would never make full use out of one of those systems negating any benefits.

Why do I recommended the FA 2-Way Dreadnoughts? We will get a large amount of adjustment with a very high-quality system that won’t break the bank and still be very reasonable when he drives home from the track. The only thing I have to tackle is the rear camber setup since there aren't plates but there are many options that we can do so I’m not worried.

For one, we track designed a set of DSG spec'd coilovers for the EvoX platform that have been a major success and yes, I do know the differences between a twin-tube and monotube setup but with enough searching, so can anyone else so I don’t see your point in questioning my knowledge.

I never said they are superior but that does not take away from their quality either. Frankly, they are very different coils and if the bottom line is if Jeff wants JRZ or Ohlins, that’s what we’ll get him ( and yes we do carry them ) but I try to offer what is more suitable for his car. He has a long list of things we still need to get and I don’t think him spending his budget on something he doesn't really need is necessary. It’s obviously better for us to push a $7000-$10000 system financially but it’s not what we do unless we feel that the customer will actually be using it. We only sell quality, but we also try to direct the customer to what would work with only their best interest in mind.

In no way am I saying FA is better (or worse) than JRZ, Ohlins, or “insert brand” but we've been doing this long enough and have sold 100’s of sets of coilovers to be comfortable enough to offer our customers what we feel is the best choice for them. We are here only rather to aid our customers and future clients in any way that we can. What I am not here to do is get into a technical battle with you by flexing our knowledge on “dampers” against one another.


@RehabJeff86

So how many lbs of variance is there actually on a dreadnaught between n minimum and maximum damping at 0.5 in/sec?

How many lbs of force at the nose point?

Yoive yet to give any reasons to get the dreadnaughts over the prove market leaders. You keep pointing toward motorsport dampers, but the JRZ, Penske, and Ohlins I speak of are street dampers. They just happen to cost more than the usual cheap stuff that is ever so popular.

In fact, I am not aware of a single frs or brz stateside on motorsport dampers, outside of Evasive, who is on KW motorsports.

[CSG Mike]

Id love to see the damper curves on your DSG spec coilovers and the reasoning behind the chosen curves.

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

So how many lbs of variance is there actually on a dreadnaught between n minimum and maximum damping at 0.5 in/sec?

How many lbs of force at the nose point?

Yoive yet to give any reasons to get the dreadnaughts over the prove market leaders. You keep pointing toward motorsport dampers, but the JRZ, Penske, and Ohlins I speak of are street dampers. They just happen to cost more than the usual cheap stuff that is ever so popular.

In fact, I am not aware of a single frs or brz stateside on motorsport dampers, outside of Evasive, who is on KW motorsports.

Here's the 2-Way shock dyno, which is right on their site. No crosstalk on the 2-ways which is really nice to see:



The reason I recommend these is because the FA 2-way is a "semi-motorsport" somewhere between street and full motorsport which suits the fact he daily drives it still. I'm going to have the valving done to suit his car. The advantage is, he's still paying less than the street versions of the high-end ones and we get to customize the spring rates and valving based on his setup.

[DAEMANO]

...would like to hear some impressions of anyone who has actually installed and ran these.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

JRZ and Ohlins are amazing quality but the valving on Fortune Auto is better

Given that we're in a motorsport subforum, I'd like to see this statement quantified by motorsport or technical results/data

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

/\ and on that note I recently saw some vids of @RehabJeff86 driving, he's got the driver mod so I'd rather he get bang for his buck rather than some over-the-top setup that will cost him a fortune.

I could easily sell him more expensive ones, it's better for me but I choose not to because I don't want to screw him

Are you implying that we're trying to screw him by selling him proven, high end dampers?

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

While high-end and high-priced JRZ, Ohlins or Moton 3 or 4 way adjustable setup would be amazing on a strictly track car, most enthusiasts aren't equipped to handle adjusting these.

How does one "equip a car to handle adjusting these"? The adjustments don't work any differently from any other two/3/4 way dampers.

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

These types of coilovers primarily reside with actual racing teams that have a suspension engineer on-staff who dial in the car on very expensive equipment, custom tuned for every track.

JRZ RS/RS-Pro, Penske 8 and 9 series, Ohlins TTX and similar, are not race dampers. They don't require an engineer to tune.

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

I have Jeff’s best interest as my priority and considering he has to daily drive his car, I don't think that he’s going to want to have to change his setup from track, to street, back to track, adjust per separate tracks, you get my point.

We would like to see Jeff maximize his driving ability on track.

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

Not to mention, he would never make full use out of one of those systems negating any benefits.

We fully support every customer who has ever bought anything from us.

On that note, how many FRS owners "make full use" of their cars?

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

Why do I recommended the FA 2-Way Dreadnoughts? We will get a large amount of adjustment with a very high-quality system that won’t break the bank and still be very reasonable when he drives home from the track.

Why is a large range of adjustment necessary, when only one setting is critical at a given piston speed for a given spring rate? This is precisely why high end dampers are custom built with a large amount of settings within a narrow range of adjustments.

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

For one, we track designed a set of DSG spec'd coilovers for the EvoX platform that have been a major success and yes, I do know the differences between a twin-tube and monotube setup but with enough searching, so can anyone else so I don’t see your point in questioning my knowledge.

What results has this EvoX had? Please enlighten me, because a google search for "DSG Evo X" results in sales posts on forums, and a blog, as well as some random pictures.

In contrast, a google search for "CSG BRZ" results in a post of the CSG BRZ with chief engineer Tatsuya Tada, a lot of on-track and lap record videos and other websites/forums that link to our track videos.

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

I never said they are superior but that does not take away from their quality either.

?

So you're saying they are or are not?

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

In no way am I saying FA is better (or worse) than JRZ, Ohlins, or “insert brand” but we've been doing this long enough and have sold 100’s of sets of coilovers to be comfortable enough to offer our customers what we feel is the best choice for them. We are here only rather to aid our customers and future clients in any way that we can. What I am not here to do is get into a technical battle with you by flexing our knowledge on “dampers” against one another.
@RehabJeff86

I think a technical discussion would be enlightening for those that are looking for information on the internal workings of a damper and how damping curves affect ride and grip.

Here's a damper dyno of a rear CSG spec SRC prototype (this is several versions ago). This is not a generic dyno. This is our dyno of our prototype.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

Here's the 2-Way shock dyno, which is right on their site. No crosstalk on the 2-ways which is really nice to see:



The reason I recommend these is because the FA 2-way is a "semi-motorsport" somewhere between street and full motorsport which suits the fact he daily drives it still. I'm going to have the valving done to suit his car. The advantage is, he's still paying less than the street versions of the high-end ones and we get to customize the spring rates and valving based on his setup.

You're linking me generic graphs. I want to know the range on YOUR DSG spec Dreadnaughts. The graph above, is something I would interpret as "this is generic valving used on all dampers, since something will be close".

FA is always posting up nice marketing materials about their dampers, but none of this is quantified.

The damping isn't even specifically paired up to a range of spring rates; they post up one and the same shock dyno for *every single application*, which makes no sense to me when different platforms/springs/etc all have different damping requirements.

What is the difference between a street, semi-motorsport, and a motorsport damper?

Seriously, I'd like to get some tangible,quantified answers.

Yes, these posts are rather aggressive, but if you're making some bold claims that I'd like to see them both quantified and qualified.

Being in the area that hosts the largest FRS/BRZ specific time trial series, I've seen a LOT of successful setups, and a LOT of bad ones.

A common theme is that all of the front runners are running just a few brands/models of suspension.

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

You're linking me generic graphs. I want to know the range on YOUR DSG spec Dreadnaughts. The graph above, is something I would interpret as "this is generic valving used on all dampers, since something will be close".

FA is always posting up nice marketing materials about their dampers, but none of this is quantified.

The damping isn't even specifically paired up to a range of spring rates; they post up one and the same shock dyno for *every single application*, which makes no sense to me when different platforms/springs/etc all have different damping requirements.

What is the difference between a street, semi-motorsport, and a motorsport damper?

Seriously, I'd like to get some tangible,quantified answers.

Yes, these posts are rather aggressive, but if you're making some bold claims that I'd like to see them both quantified and qualified.

Being in the area that hosts the largest FRS/BRZ specific time trial series, I've seen a LOT of successful setups, and a LOT of bad ones.

A common theme is that all of the front runners are running just a few brands/models of suspension.

Actually let me ask you a question. Since you seem to be so adamant on being against Fortune Auto and yelling every person that only Penseke and JRZ are the way to go (even on cars doing 5-10 events a year), have you had a fully dialed in FA Dreadnought on your car? Did you even wonder why we say what we say is because we've driven them and have real world data from track cars that they are on.

If you want to know a little story, we recently had a customer that had full Motorsport KW's 3-Way Adjustable but the customer wasn't able to dial in the settings. A vendor had pushed these on him just stating they're "high end" and the "best". A set of FA 2-ways went on that car that FA gave some adjustment setup tips, he said it was one of the best setups he'd ever had on his car. He also mostly daily drives his car and says they're very quiet and totally suitable for daily driving. Now, I'm sure if he could have professionally had his KW dialed in they would have been great however, a lot of guys don't know how to setup low speed settings, etc. especially when they have to drive it home after.

So, with that in mind I know when an FA setup is ideal for my customers and when I need to push a JRZ/Ohlins/KW.

This entire thing has nothing to do with me thinking EVERYONE should run FA, it's certainly not the case. I completely agree that certain cars will definitely benefit from a very high-end system. The amount of maching on a top end JRZ is incredible! And my statement was a bit vague about the dampeners being better by FA, I meant in this particular case for Jeff since he will be daily driving his car. FA valving is done keeping that in mind, that is why on the above graph it shows a significant variance between "clicks" on the dyno graph. They are notoriously quiet dampeners and don't "clunk" around. I'm sure JRZ is just as good, if not better, but for the price point I can't justify offering it to Jeff for his application (even the street versions which are still more than the FA 2-Way).

[celica73]

Yall really ought to take this argument off-line. It's doing a disservice to both of you, and not really helping answer the original question.

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

Actually let me ask you a question. Since you seem to be so adamant on being against Fortune Auto and yelling every person that only Penseke and JRZ are the way to go (even on cars doing 5-10 events a year), have you had a fully dialed in FA Dreadnought on your car? Did you even wonder why we say what we say is because we've driven them and have real world data from track cars that they are on.

If you want to know a little story, we recently had a customer that had full Motorsport KW's 3-Way Adjustable but the customer wasn't able to dial in the settings. A vendor had pushed these on him just stating they're "high end" and the "best". A set of FA 2-ways went on that car that FA gave some adjustment setup tips, he said it was one of the best setups he'd ever had on his car. He also mostly daily drives his car and says they're very quiet and totally suitable for daily driving. Now, I'm sure if he could have professionally had his KW dialed in they would have been great however, a lot of guys don't know how to setup low speed settings, etc. especially when they have to drive it home after.

So, with that in mind I know when an FA setup is ideal for my customers and when I need to push a JRZ/Ohlins/KW.

This entire thing has nothing to do with me thinking EVERYONE should run FA, it's certainly not the case. I completely agree that certain cars will definitely benefit from a very high-end system. The amount of maching on a top end JRZ is incredible! And my statement was a bit vague about the dampeners being better by FA, I meant in this particular case for Jeff since he will be daily driving his car. FA valving is done keeping that in mind, that is why on the above graph it shows a significant variance between "clicks" on the dyno graph. They are notoriously quiet dampeners and don't "clunk" around. I'm sure JRZ is just as good, if not better, but for the price point I can't justify offering it to Jeff for his application (even the street versions which are still more than the FA 2-Way).

As a very technically oriented person looking to upgrade the suspension on my car, I really do like seeing quantified numbers on these components. Although very harsh, this back and forth is enlightening regarding some of the more advanced information worth knowing regarding packages. Would it be possible to have such information posted (as in actual data not synthetic graphs of theoretical values (the step size on your first graph makes me wary of it and the CSG guys have pointed out some other questionable bits too))?