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Mechanical Maintenance (Oil, Fluids, Break-In, Servicing) Everything related to the mechanical maintenance of the FR-S and BRZ


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Old 05-05-2014, 07:33 PM   #1
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Redline 0w20, notice to vendors/shops

So I went in to my local tuning shop for some upgrade discussions, and they informed me today that Redline sent a bulletin out to vendors/shops about their 0w20 synth oil. I did not fully understand everything, and not sure if this is just old news, but apparently they DO NOT recommend their 0w20 oils for high performance, high temperature use. It was developed for emissions and higher mpg, and was not meant for high performance use with very high temperatures. Apparently this goes with any other 0w20 brand. This information was from Redline, and not my shop "theorizing" anything. They said, especially for turbo use, they do not recommend the 0w20. 5w30 or 40 is what they recommend with high temp/turbo use.

I've researched numerous threads about FI guys using various oils, ranging from 0w20 to 5w40, with various theories behind them. I have heard the "clearance" issue with our engines, and we NEED to use 0w20. I have also heard that with FI applications, the factory recommendation goes out the window, and we should use 5w30 when seeing higher temps.

I am going to trust the Redline bulletin (couldn't find it online, might E-mail them myself) and go with 5w30, especially for summer and Auto-X. They also mentioned that anything below 260F is ok.

If this was old news, and everybody already knew about it, then I should of researched more. It gets confusing with so many contradicting information everywhere, on or off the forum.
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Old 05-05-2014, 08:29 PM   #2
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It depends on what temps you are hitting. Super hot oil thins out, so to be at the right viscosity at higher temps you need thicker oil.

From what I've read here, most street and AX, even FI, the temps don't get that high.

For track use or hard driving (extended WOT) the temps get up there, so oil cooler and thicker oil is possibly better.
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Old 05-05-2014, 08:46 PM   #3
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I run Redline 0w20 and mostly because of the additive package. Probably one of the few on here that does. There are other reasons such as bearing clearances etc.

But I run FI application and oil cooler, ran a long track day. 1 hour session and four 30 minute sessions. Had oil up to 260 (not recommended on 0w20). Also added 3000 street miles and autox.
Sent that oil sample out and it was cleaner than many motors with less usage. Zero wear materials.

So it just depends on the application, also its generally much cooler in my climate. Cold starts are killer with "thicker" oils that's where a massive amount of wear occurs. So don't think by running some thick ass oil its going to protect your motor. In fact its probably going to do more harm unless you are a real track rat. Not just a few track sessions a year.

I'd go more by following oil temps and UOA than a general bulletin.
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Old 05-05-2014, 09:46 PM   #4
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Redline needs better legal counsel and a PR dept that coordinates with them.
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Old 05-05-2014, 09:55 PM   #5
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thanks for the input guys. @Dezoris do you consider 5w30 to be "thick ass" and harmful for startups during summers? In the PNW, summer morning temps are around 65f.
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Old 05-05-2014, 10:17 PM   #6
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Paraffin paranoia. Red Line 0W20 is the beefiest and the thickest oil on the market in that grade. Eneos Sustina, the thinnest 0W20 oil on the market, is recommended for BRZ/FRS.
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Old 05-05-2014, 11:35 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by BRZPDX View Post
thanks for the input guys. @Dezoris do you consider 5w30 to be "thick ass" and harmful for startups during summers? In the PNW, summer morning temps are around 65f.

I want to start this out by saying:
At 100F 0w30 is 35% thicker than 0w20
Our motors while cruising along will settle between 200F and 215F for a normal operating range.


I am not an engineer, or oil expert. And frankly you have people that simply make too much of this at the end of the day.

There is one thing most oil reps will agree on and that is there is a specific reason why manufacturers specify oil ratings for motors. Some cars it does not matter, while others it can harm drivability.

For example motors with cylinder deactivation, or new motors with smaller oil galleries, clearances and advanced VVT setups. This car (FRS/BRZ) IMO is one of those and why they want you using a 20 weight oil. I believe whatever engineer decided that had a reason beyond efficiency sake.

If you are never in a climate that gets below freezing then the 0w just does not matter. But now that oils are so good there is no point not having it. If you absolutely live is a super hot climate and track the car run 0w30 but only if you have oil temps above 225F constantly and not just once a week.

Most oil makers from Redline, Mobile, Amsoil state 0w30 are their best oils or most pure. But if you run your motor always under 210F all the time your 0w30 is going to be too thick compared to the 0w20.

If you watch your oil temps and you don't see them constantly above 225F, I just don't see the point of switching from 0w20.
Use your own data to make the decisions at the end of the day.






Here is my UOA after 3000 miles with track, autox and street
REDLINE 0W20

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Old 05-05-2014, 11:42 PM   #8
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BTW that UOA on that oil had plenty of time where the 0w20 was getting too hot on track.
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Old 05-05-2014, 11:58 PM   #9
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@Dezoris
wow, impressive! I need to know why Redline sent a bulletin to the vendors with such claim then. I will need to talk to them personally. The tune shop said "hey I'm not a chemical engineer, they sent us this and its probably a good idea to follow what they say".

35% thicker does not sound good at all. When I install my oil cooler, its going get much cooler for daily driving (currently average numbers are 215 - 230F daily driving). Only way to really find out is what Redline is thinking, and will it be ok if I use your UOA to show them as well? You said you hit about 260F at the track? I need to get some answers.
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Old 05-06-2014, 12:18 AM   #10
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@Dezoris
wow, impressive! I need to know why Redline sent a bulletin to the vendors with such claim then. I will need to talk to them personally. The tune shop said "hey I'm not a chemical engineer, they sent us this and its probably a good idea to follow what they say".

35% thicker does not sound good at all. When I install my oil cooler, its going get much cooler for daily driving (currently average numbers are 215 - 230F daily driving). Only way to really find out is what Redline is thinking, and will it be ok if I use your UOA to show them as well? You said you hit about 260F at the track? I need to get some answers.
Your daily driving numbers are still within good limits for the 0w20. And lets face it, engineers know and would have tested the car on their engine dyno and for sure would have exceeded 230F probably often. If there was not enough overhead in 0w20 they would not spec the car that way.

Further more car has no oil cooler, it may have been cost cutting but clearly they were not worried about oil temp. You get the picture. When you get your oil cooler you will be looking at around 200F all the time or less and 20 weight is where you want to be.

That oil sample had 4 hours running between 240-255F
And 15 minutes at 265F for track. (Most of this was just durability testing, not something that is normal for me)
The rest would have been running between 185F and 220F in summer.

I have a second sample going out with 5000 miles on it with a track day, autox, cold starts extended idling. So I will post that up when it comes back.
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Old 05-06-2014, 12:49 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dezoris View Post
Your daily driving numbers are still within good limits for the 0w20. And lets face it, engineers know and would have tested the car on their engine dyno and for sure would have exceeded 230F probably often. If there was not enough overhead in 0w20 they would not spec the car that way.

Further more car has no oil cooler, it may have been cost cutting but clearly they were not worried about oil temp. You get the picture. When you get your oil cooler you will be looking at around 200F all the time or less and 20 weight is where you want to be.

That oil sample had 4 hours running between 240-255F
And 15 minutes at 265F for track. (Most of this was just durability testing, not something that is normal for me)
The rest would have been running between 185F and 220F in summer.

I have a second sample going out with 5000 miles on it with a track day, autox, cold starts extended idling. So I will post that up when it comes back.
I will be looking forward to seeing the UOA at 5000 miles. I'm assuming this was with 0w20 Redline.

I really appreciate the valuable information. I e-mailed Redline, hopefully they have their input as well. Only thing I am concerned right now is that, now my tuner shop has a strong belief that the 0w20 will not be enough to lubricate for high temp/Turbo applications, and if I push through with my decisions and if something goes wrong, they can easily blame it on my oil choice. I hate losing leverage. So I will need to have the Redline rep explain in detail what the mass bulletin for vendors/shops really meant.

your UOA provided good evidence, and I thank you for sharing that info.
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Old 05-06-2014, 02:26 AM   #12
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I will be looking forward to seeing the UOA at 5000 miles. I'm assuming this was with 0w20 Redline.

I really appreciate the valuable information. I e-mailed Redline, hopefully they have their input as well. Only thing I am concerned right now is that, now my tuner shop has a strong belief that the 0w20 will not be enough to lubricate for high temp/Turbo applications, and if I push through with my decisions and if something goes wrong, they can easily blame it on my oil choice. I hate losing leverage. So I will need to have the Redline rep explain in detail what the mass bulletin for vendors/shops really meant.

your UOA provided good evidence, and I thank you for sharing that info.
It is Redline 0w20 ,I am using. Your issue of course is different with a Turbo. In truth I took that for granted posting this. Since its an oil fed turbo, I can see why they said 0w20 aint gonna cut it. The fact that the Turbo and Motor have vastly different lubrication requirements almost forces you to run 0w30.

The silver lining is your oil is going to heat up/get up to temp much faster than a SC or NA car. If the turbo you are using is OK to use 0w20 then ignore what I said and just watch oil temps and send out a UOA at 3000 miles.
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Old 05-06-2014, 10:15 AM   #13
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I am going to trust the Redline bulletin (couldn't find it online, might E-mail them myself) and go with 5w30, especially for summer and Auto-X. They also mentioned that anything below 260F is ok.
Regardless of whether or not this bulletin is true, and you should be receiving a response from Dave very shortly, I can never understand why people think that just switching to a 5W-30 will give them more protection.

Most 5W-30's will shear under hard use to a viscosity that is thinner than Red Line 0W-20. There are many WRX 5W-30 uoa's where the viscosity is even lower than the 6.9 in Dezoris's Red Line uoa.

Instead of people just switching to a 5W-30, they should look up the oil's HTHS. Red Line 0W-20 has an HTHS of 2.9 which is the same as many off the shelf 5W-30's. RL 5W-20 has an HTHS of 3.0. Factory turbocharged Subaru's do best on oils with an HTHS of 3.5 or higher.

I'll be waiting for this bulletin to be posted, or an email from Dave at RL.


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Old 05-06-2014, 03:17 PM   #14
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I spoke with Redline's rep today regarding this bulletin. The rep was not aware of this bulletin (not sure why my tuner shop said it was from Redline, perhaps a different department) and they say the 0w20 will be fine even in the 260F range, as Dezoris's UOA proved.

My tuner shop is half and half on this. They say that the Turbo set-up I have shares the oil with the engine, unlike the SC kit that has a closed system, and the turbo clearances are bigger/looser than the engine since it requires more rotation/generates a lot more heat. For this, the turbo will benefit from a 5w30 type oil over 0w20. They agreed that with Dezoris's UOA, the 0w20 will be fine for the engine.

At this point, we agreed to stay at 0w20 unless I see increased oil consumption, and to keep an eye out on the dip stick. If the oil is not holding up well with the turbo, they recommend a heavier oil. Turbo clearance and FA20 engine clearance are different, as well as heat. I probably need to do a UOA since I am approaching my 3k mile..
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