Lexus LFA breaks cover before Tokyo unveiling

[Midship Runabout]

^ at supra coment

Agree with the rest.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Dimman

As for the 'Ring times that a getting thrown around all the time, this is the one track where a marginally more familiar driver can account for many seconds of performance improvement. I would prefer to see maybe an 8 lap average of Tsukuba instead. More reflective of the cars' performance as opposed to driver memory.

Well from the 5th gear vid they show that the LFA can bite you in the ass very easily. Its break-away characteristics are snappy, not progressive. This is bad for 99% of drivers. More and more this car is looking like a one-trick pony. Excels at the track. Mediocre everywhere else.

Two things. Tsukuba is way too small for these super car, if they gonna do test laps, then do it @ Fuji, That has high speed, more G's, more braking & more everything then Tsukuba.

Also, 5th gear vid Tiff did say that LFA tran can change only 10th of sec, but he didn't say it was bad thing. He stated that he like that idea.

Also to add to Tiff's statement, here's another car journalist comment bout LFA.
[u2b]ytjOyB3VwIo[/u2b]
btw, Thomas Bangma is leading Dutch car journalist and Nur racer w trainer, so I think he knows what he's talking bout... well somewhat anyways.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

^^ Tiff drives with all aids OFF.

**sigh, where do I start**

It's useless arguing with you, because obviously you prefer the big engine in an "I don't care how much it weighs because I have one thousand torques" kind of car. Should have been obvious... you drive a MkIII.

The LFA's transmission has been described as "harsh" but it was designed to be that way. This is the only review where it has been described as letting the car down. Yes. The Sequential is "slow".... if you can call 0.2s slow. It is that way because that is the way they wanted it to be. You don't think Lexus had the money and resources to design a double clutch transmission if they felt that it was necessary for the car? The ASG was developed specially for the LFA.

The Benz has a better engine? You must be out of your ever living mind. It has more rear weight bias? What's your point? If Lexus felt that the LFA needed more weight in the back, they probably would have put the engine there in the first place. The car does exactly what it's designed to do, and does a damn good job at it.

I'm not saying the SLS isn't a great car, it is. But the LFA is better. Performance does not = 0-60 and 1/4 mile.... I guess the Euro car lovers only feel that those parameters = performance when they get slaughtered around the track, in driving response and overall sensation.

Where it the other way around, we'd be hearing fairly tail bullshit about "soul" and what's not.

Puh-lease.

Ahem... my Mk3 weighs less than the LFA. It's also a 1JZGTE which means 500cc smaller than 7M or 2JZ, oversquare bore, short stroke = not great torque but revs awesome.

The SLS weighs only 113 lbs more than the LFA yet has 125 lb-ft more torque 2050 rpm sooner.

The rear-weight bias is 1% more than the LFA. This means contrary to what a lot of people probably think, the SLS is not some nose-heavy boat.

It pulls only .05g less laterally than the LFA. It doesn't need a glass-smooth track to do it.

The retarded sequential is there because it is Formula One-y. Twin clutch 'boxes have proven that they are levels of magnitude superior to single clutch auto-manuals. And it's not even great by single-clutch standards.

The LFA car was built to lap the 'Ring because that is the new '200mph club'. To be a modern supercar you need a sub-8 minute 'Ring time. But the LFA is too specialized. It doesn't handle real roads well. And we still don't have an official third party time from an LFA at the 'Ring.

In the SLS vid that Ichi posted AMG refers to the 7:40 of the SLS as an 'attainable' time. Meaning not some 'Ring expert pro-only one shot time on slicks or shaved R compound 'street' tires.

At 10/10ths the LFA will moderately outperform the SLS in my opinion. At 1 to 9/10ths on anything other than perfect track tarmac (where these cars will be driven by all but true pros) the SLS will be significantly faster. Power under the curve is your friend.

The 'Soul' bullshit was tossed around a lot during the LFA's release.

Ichi: Tsukuba would be an excellent test venue. Very good combination of tight turns, straights, transitions, heavy braking and fast sweepers. Besides if the 'Ring isn't the LFA's 'home' track then surely it's the Toyota-owned Fuji Speedway. (Fuji's the track in the vid I posted ^) But I think even Fuji would take some of the driver's memory out of the equation and you would see the LFA's alleged 'Ring superiority be significantly eroded.

PS: Arguing with me is useful to kill time waiting for the next ridiculously obscure F/T/R-86/S info tid-bit to emerge... (that was the point of this round two)

Heh

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Ichi: Tsukuba would be an excellent test venue. Very good combination of tight turns, straights, transitions, heavy braking and fast sweepers. Besides if the 'Ring isn't the LFA's 'home' track then surely it's the Toyota-owned Fuji Speedway. (Fuji's the track in the vid I posted ^) But I think even Fuji would take some of the driver's memory out of the equation and you would see the LFA's alleged 'Ring superiority be significantly eroded.

False, in Japan, LFA was tested on Yamaha track. Why do you think they brought those car journalists to Fuji? Not because Toyota own it, cuz out of all the main land Japan Fuji is known to outsider more than Tsukuba.

Even BMI drivers stated many time that, Tsukuba's top speed, braking or lateral G's are lower than Fuji, resulting can't see the full potential for those super cars. Fuji is well known track in the world. That's why most of Lambo, Ferr, Pors & other super car race in BMI were/are done in Fuji (there are few exception, due to the costly).

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

False, in Japan, LFA was tested on Yamaha track. Why do you think they brought those car journalists to Fuji? Not because Toyota own it, cuz out of all the main land Japan Fuji is known to outsider more than Tsukuba.

Even BMI drivers stated many time that, Tsukuba's top speed, braking or lateral G's are lower than Fuji, resulting can't see the full potential for those super cars. Fuji is well known track in the world. That's why most of Lambo, Ferr, Pors & other super car race in BMI were/are done in Fuji (there are few exception, due to the costly).

Umm... the whole point of the 'F' in LFA and the 'F' line of Lexus performance stuff, is that it means 'Fuji', after the Speedway not the mountain. They picked it because it's a Toyota track. They filmed that vid there for a reason too.

Again going back to my Lexus conspiracy theory about the need to tie in to F1. There is the the name. And the fact that Toyota really pulled VERY hard to get Fuji Speedway on the F1 circuit (GP of Japan alternating annually between Suzuka and Fuji), when it was more commonly known as a 'mere' sportscar track and Suzuka was the mighty F1 track. Suzuka is the most well known Japanese track outside of Japan, but that's Honda property.

Whatever the case, I would rather see tests done on any of those 3 tracks rather than the 'Ring, due to the driver's familiarity with the 'Ring having a more profound effect on lap-times than the car (assuming a reasonable degree of car performance closeness).

Personally I would pick Tsukuba out of convenience just because it's closer to Tokyo. It also seems to be Japan's 'Ring in terms of testing and comparing numbers, Super Lap Battle etc... And I doubt the LFA would have a 20 second lead over the SLS through 7-8 laps of Tsukuba (which would be close to the same overall times as the 'Ring I think).

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Ahem... my Mk3 weighs less than the LFA. It's also a 1JZGTE which means 500cc smaller than 7M or 2JZ, oversquare bore, short stroke = not great torque but revs awesome.

The SLS weighs only 113 lbs more than the LFA yet has 125 lb-ft more torque 2050 rpm sooner.

The rear-weight bias is 1% more than the LFA. This means contrary to what a lot of people probably think, the SLS is not some nose-heavy boat.

It pulls only .05g less laterally than the LFA. It doesn't need a glass-smooth track to do it.

The retarded sequential is there because it is Formula One-y. Twin clutch 'boxes have proven that they are levels of magnitude superior to single clutch auto-manuals. And it's not even great by single-clutch standards.

The LFA car was built to lap the 'Ring because that is the new '200mph club'. To be a modern supercar you need a sub-8 minute 'Ring time. But the LFA is too specialized. It doesn't handle real roads well. And we still don't have an official third party time from an LFA at the 'Ring.

In the SLS vid that Ichi posted AMG refers to the 7:40 of the SLS as an 'attainable' time. Meaning not some 'Ring expert pro-only one shot time on slicks or shaved R compound 'street' tires.

At 10/10ths the LFA will moderately outperform the SLS in my opinion. At 1 to 9/10ths on anything other than perfect track tarmac (where these cars will be driven by all but true pros) the SLS will be significantly faster. Power under the curve is your friend.

The 'Soul' bullshit was tossed around a lot during the LFA's release.

Ichi: Tsukuba would be an excellent test venue. Very good combination of tight turns, straights, transitions, heavy braking and fast sweepers. Besides if the 'Ring isn't the LFA's 'home' track then surely it's the Toyota-owned Fuji Speedway. (Fuji's the track in the vid I posted ^) But I think even Fuji would take some of the driver's memory out of the equation and you would see the LFA's alleged 'Ring superiority be significantly eroded.

PS: Arguing with me is useful to kill time waiting for the next ridiculously obscure F/T/R-86/S info tid-bit to emerge... (that was the point of this round two)

Heh

After how much you have gutted out of it? And I'm quite familiar with the 1JZ. Flirted with buying a JZA70 once upon a time, but decided if I ever buy a supra, it's going to be a MkIV.

You keep harping about torque. You seem to know a little about cars. You should know that torque is useless without proper gear ratios to put it to the ground. Do I have to explain to you why an engine that revs to 9000 rpm with a flat torque curve is a better performance choice than one with more torque but can only rev to 7000rpm? The LFA in it's lightest configuration is also about 300lbs lighter than the SLS that they tested. Willing to be that you couldn't find an SLS lighter than that unless someone stole the seats out of it.

I never accused the SLS of being a nose heavy boat. It's a bruiser, like most... no all Mercedes performance cars are. More of the same.
The LFA can pull 1.4 lateral Gs. That is .35 more Gs and I think you'd find that's quite a bit. It also goes through the slalom 5mph faster than an SLS, incidentally, faster than an Enzo as well. The only other cars that will match or better it, are the Mosler M900 and the ZR1.

All of which while it has it's merit, is slightly irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make. The LFA is as much about the way it goes about doing what it does as to just simply doing what it does. Full sensory overload. The driver's experience. The Sequential box is there because it is lighter than a dual clutch, because it gives more tactile feedback. Nothing to do with Formula One. The F1 guys would use a CVT is they could get away with it.

I think you might be confusing the GT-R with the LFA. The LFA was developed on race tracks and roads all over the world. Paul Ricard, the Nardo ring, Fuji raceway and yes the Nurburgring. It was developed to go fast around any track, not to be a nurburgring specialist. Most reviewers who have driven it on the road says it's just fine there. If you are implying that the LFA can't do better than 7.40 under anything but specialized conditions or at least better than the SLS, then I'd have to begin thinking that you are arguing just for arguing's sake. You are also being quite redundant, because the Nurburgring is anything BUT glass smooth. At 10/10ths, 9/10ths, 8/10ths, I'm pretty sure the LFA would rape the SLS around any circuit, and happily drive home after. Hope the SLS driver ticked the box for the OPTIONAL composite brakes.

As for the "Soul" argument:

Car CANNOT have souls. I'd be the last person you would hear use that bullshit argument. Cars can have character and the ability to evoke emotions, but that's about it. Both are important elements in what makes the difference between a really good car and a great car and the LFA has them both in spades. Soul, it comes up short on, because CARS CAN'T HAVE SOULS.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Umm... the whole point of the 'F' in LFA and the 'F' line of Lexus performance stuff, is that it means 'Fuji', after the Speedway not the mountain. They picked it because it's a Toyota track. They filmed that vid there for a reason too.

Again going back to my Lexus conspiracy theory about the need to tie in to F1. There is the the name. And the fact that Toyota really pulled VERY hard to get Fuji Speedway on the F1 circuit (GP of Japan alternating annually between Suzuka and Fuji), when it was more commonly known as a 'mere' sportscar track and Suzuka was the mighty F1 track. Suzuka is the most well known Japanese track outside of Japan, but that's Honda property.

Whatever the case, I would rather see tests done on any of those 3 tracks rather than the 'Ring, due to the driver's familiarity with the 'Ring having a more profound effect on lap-times than the car (assuming a reasonable degree of car performance closeness).

Personally I would pick Tsukuba out of convenience just because it's closer to Tokyo. It also seems to be Japan's 'Ring in terms of testing and comparing numbers, Super Lap Battle etc... And I doubt the LFA would have a 20 second lead over the SLS through 7-8 laps of Tsukuba (which would be close to the same overall times as the 'Ring I think).

Forgot that LFA stands for Lexus F-Series Apex. me on my part.

But, even w that advantage, you telling me SLS can't take LFA on? Now that would be lesser all around super car.

As for SLS's time, it's official time. It's driven by pro.
[u2b]QogyCSuVQjE[/u2b]

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

After how much you have gutted out of it? And I'm quite familiar with the 1JZ. Flirted with buying a JZA70 once upon a time, but decided if I ever buy a supra, it's going to be a MkIV.

You keep harping about torque. You seem to know a little about cars. You should know that torque is useless without proper gear ratios to put it to the ground. Do I have to explain to you why an engine that revs to 9000 rpm with a flat torque curve is a better performance choice than one with more torque but can only rev to 7000rpm? The LFA in it's lightest configuration is also about 300lbs lighter than the SLS that they tested. Willing to be that you couldn't find an SLS lighter than that unless someone stole the seats out of it.

I never accused the SLS of being a nose heavy boat. It's a bruiser, like most... no all Mercedes performance cars are. More of the same.
The LFA can pull 1.4 lateral Gs. That is .35 more Gs and I think you'd find that's quite a bit. It also goes through the slalom 5mph faster than an SLS, incidentally, faster than an Enzo as well. The only other cars that will match or better it, are the Mosler M900 and the ZR1.

All of which while it has it's merit, is slightly irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make. The LFA is as much about the way it goes about doing what it does as to just simply doing what it does. Full sensory overload. The driver's experience. The Sequential box is there because it is lighter than a dual clutch, because it gives more tactile feedback. Nothing to do with Formula One. The F1 guys would use a CVT is they could get away with it.

I think you might be confusing the GT-R with the LFA. The LFA was developed on race tracks and roads all over the world. Paul Ricard, the Nardo ring, Fuji raceway and yes the Nurburgring. It was developed to go fast around any track, not to be a nurburgring specialist. Most reviewers who have driven it on the road says it's just fine there. If you are implying that the LFA can't do better than 7.40 under anything but specialized conditions or at least better than the SLS, then I'd have to begin thinking that you are arguing just for arguing's sake. You are also being quite redundant, because the Nurburgring is anything BUT glass smooth. At 10/10ths, 9/10ths, 8/10ths, I'm pretty sure the LFA would rape the SLS around any circuit, and happily drive home after. Hope the SLS driver ticked the box for the OPTIONAL composite brakes.

As for the "Soul" argument:

Car CANNOT have souls. I'd be the last person you would hear use that bullshit argument. Cars can have character and the ability to evoke emotions, but that's about it. Both are important elements in what makes the difference between a really good car and a great car and the LFA has them both in spades. Soul, it comes up short on, because CARS CAN'T HAVE SOULS.

I can guarantee you that the 1.4g rating of the LFA is a peak reading at speed, likely through a left-right transition and NOT a skidpad figure. 1.05g is its skidpad figure. That is the standard for lateral g measurement and is an average.

Lexus wanted, for some strange reason given who and how they are getting these cars, to create an 'F1' sensory experience. So some serious compromises were made for daily use. Going back to my Lexus/F1 conspiracy theory...

My point about the 'Ring is that the driver can have more of an effect there than the car. I do not believe that the LFA would be 20 seconds up on an SLS over 7 or 8 laps of Tsukuba as an example.

I also believe that 9 out of 10 enthusiast drivers would be faster on a track in an SLS than an LFA. And 9999/10000 of typical Lexus buyers would be faster in the Benz.

And the LFA got beat in the slalom by a Chevy and a Chevy-powered kit-car?

As for the optional brakes, $172000 buys a LOT of options.

I pretty much am arguing for the sake of it, don't know if you caught that in my "Forum is stalling" thread.

For the record, given the choice of owning an SLS with zero conditions and owning an LFA but having to cut off my pinkie finger, I would pick the LFA.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Dimman

I can guarantee you that the 1.4g rating of the LFA is a peak reading at speed, likely through a left-right transition and NOT a skidpad figure. 1.05g is its skidpad figure. That is the standard for lateral g measurement and is an average.

Lexus wanted, for some strange reason given who and how they are getting these cars, to create an 'F1' sensory experience. So some serious compromises were made for daily use. Going back to my Lexus/F1 conspiracy theory...

My point about the 'Ring is that the driver can have more of an effect there than the car. I do not believe that the LFA would be 20 seconds up on an SLS over 7 or 8 laps of Tsukuba as an example.

I also believe that 9 out of 10 enthusiast drivers would be faster on a track in an SLS than an LFA. And 9999/10000 of typical Lexus buyers would be faster in the Benz.

And the LFA got beat in the slalom by a Chevy and a Chevy-powered kit-car?

As for the optional brakes, $172000 buys a LOT of options.

I pretty much am arguing for the sake of it, don't know if you caught that in my "Forum is stalling" thread.

For the record, given the choice of owning an SLS with zero conditions and owning an LFA but having to cut off my pinkie finger, I would pick the LFA.

Yeah, I did catch your forum stalling thread, but think it's pointless to berate the car for the sake of argument. A lot of BS has been posted all over the internet about the LFA and I don't think it's cool to slam what is a great car.

This car was not made to be sold to typical Lexus buyers. It's a halo for the F performance brand to raise cachet and to bring newer buyers into the fold and keep the enthusiast buyers that they do have from going to say BMW M or Mercedes AMG.

I'm not sure about you assumption of 9/10 enthusiast being faster in the LFA. I see the LFA as a grown up, refined, exotic Lotus Exige. People who like that kind of car will do well with it on a track, but only out the door, as I think the more the driver becomes more familiar with the limits of the LFA, they will get faster.

As for tsukuba...

Call BMI?




p.s. I'd give my left nut.

[Siriusly.Andrew]

Originally Posted by Dimman

For the LFA lovers, probably the best vid of the car I've seen. Enjoy:

I seen that a while back, and I put it on my MP3 player. Just for the music + engine

As for giving a pinky or left nut, I'd probably give up my whole apparatus just so I wouldn't have to clean my pants every time I turned the car on or went for a drive. Kidding of course but I thought that was funny :P

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

Yeah, I did catch your forum stalling thread, but think it's pointless to berate the car for the sake of argument. A lot of BS has been posted all over the internet about the LFA and I don't think it's cool to slam what is a great car.

This car was not made to be sold to typical Lexus buyers. It's a halo for the F performance brand to raise cachet and to bring newer buyers into the fold and keep the enthusiast buyers that they do have from going to say BMW M or Mercedes AMG.

I'm not sure about you assumption of 9/10 enthusiast being faster in the LFA. I see the LFA as a grown up, refined, exotic Lotus Exige. People who like that kind of car will do well with it on a track, but only out the door, as I think the more the driver becomes more familiar with the limits of the LFA, they will get faster.

As for tsukuba...

Call BMI?




p.s. I'd give my left nut.

My hypothetical 9/10 enthusiasts I believe would be faster in the Benz.

The more I get into the situation that created the LFA, the more frustrated and baffled I become.

Perviously I ranted about how this could have been a new Supra. My proposed 2UR car in another thread. GT-R competitor, woulda, coulda, shoulda... Now I'm confused about the process of choosing who got access to the LFA. It was very Ferrari-like.

They invited a select chosen few Lexus customers (not Toyota, so even if I were a multimillionaire I couldn't have got one) to lease the car for 2 years. But the thing is WTF does this car have to do with existing Lexus customers?

I can understand the desire to shake off the 'boring' reputation their cars have (or I'll even admit... HAD before the LFA). But existing customers? C'mon...

I'm guessing that most of these went to successful dealers who wanted a Lexus they could show-off to their peers. In this case it's purpose isn't so much a halo car, as a higher 'class' of car for promoting "I've made it!" when a LS600h isn't flashy enough.

I seriously doubt more than 5 or 6 of the privately leased LFAs will be raced. We also don't know the conditions of the lease. Ferrari implemented something similar with the F50 that had a LOT of stipulations on what leaseholders could do with their cars, especially testing by journalists. Reason was there that it wasn't any faster than the F40.

Anyway, Toyota has these bazillion dollar looms sitting around and an imperfect supercar. What should they do now?

2011 LFA. Increased stroke by around 5mm, to increase torque and lower its peak. Marginal power bump. Overhaul the transmission for more than just full-race shifting. Sell them for $100000. Make money through economies of scale! Think of how many they would sell at 100k!

(I can dream...)

And my one pet-peeve with its looks: Sort out the cooling air-flow in the front of the car so they can remove the vent that looks like the hood doesn't fit properly.

Edit: Lexus' original motto "The relentless pursuit of perfection" comes from an approximate translation of the Japanese word "Kaizen". In the West, Kaizen is associated with 'continuous improvement' quality systems for companies following the Toyota Process (or House of Toyota). No car is perfect. Toyota must improve this car and continue to approach perfection. This is why I seem critical of Toyota.

[Matador]

^Their original motto is "the passionate pursuit of perfection".

I don't think that many actual Lexus customers were invited to buy the LFA. The ones that have presence in motorsports as well as other supercars yes. Those whop are known to drive them as well. Lexus wants the car driven, not sitting in a garage. I wish they'd give me one. lol.

I thing Ryan Woon was invited to buy one. Dealers aren't even considered in the inital allocation and I think there was a bit of a tussle because there were a few who wanted and couldn't get.

As for what's next? I'd much like to see an SC-F announced that's as fast as the LFA, for about ~$120k as soon as the last car is delivered into customers hands ROFLMAO.

better if it looks like this;



Would also like to see an entry level roadster (maybe FT086 based?) and a proper IS-F coupe (that's as close to a supra as we are going to get).

The Fox Marketing twin turbo IS-F allegedly makes 625hp on 6psi. I could see a 2UR engine + supercharger making at least 550. The tundra engines goes from 380hp to 550hp/500 ft/lbs when Supercharged @8.5 psi.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

^Their original motto is "the passionate pursuit of perfection".

I don't think that many actual Lexus customers were invited to buy the LFA. The ones that have presence in motorsports as well as other supercars yes. Those whop are known to drive them as well. Lexus wants the car driven, not sitting in a garage. I wish they'd give me one. lol.

I thing Ryan Woon was invited to buy one. Dealers aren't even considered in the inital allocation and I think there was a bit of a tussle because there were a few who wanted and couldn't get.

As for what's next? I'd much like to see an SC-F announced that's as fast as the LFA, for about ~$120k as soon as the last car is delivered into customers hands ROFLMAO.

better if it looks like this;



Would also like to see an entry level roadster (maybe FT086 based?) and a proper IS-F coupe (that's as close to a supra as we are going to get).

The Fox Marketing twin turbo IS-F allegedly makes 625hp on 6psi. I could see a 2UR engine + supercharger making at least 550. The tundra engines goes from 380hp to 550hp/500 ft/lbs when Supercharged @8.5 psi.

The Relentless Pursuit of Perfection was first, way back in the day. Then they switched to Passionate, now I believe it's just "Pursuing Perfection".

Ryan Woon got offered one??? WTF is he going to do with one? Drop in a 2JZGTE, V160 and AEM standalone and go run some 8 second passes on the strip? Rumor in the Supra circles is he's being a little bit pouty and not doing too much since he hasn't been able to take back his 6 speed record with the new blue car.

(But that may be old news, things change fast...)

That car in the pic would make a MUCH better SC. Coupe with a 2UR for the SC-F would be not bad. I just wish Toyota would offer a manual in the F cars...

[Matador]

^ Yeah, you are correct.

Yeah, I heard Ryan got offered one. Don't think he's getting it though.

Boosted 2UR FTW