Got a track related question? I'll try to answer.

[orthojoe]

Originally Posted by dradernh

As a track junkie hanging here to learn about the platform before deciding whether or not to buy a twin to use as a DD & dozen-track-days-a-year car, your comments have me concerned. Can you elaborate on the issues you've noted here?

I'm not sure how to elaborate, but i'll try. I don't know why the car won't hold an alignment. I'm sure there are solutions out there like toe links and LCAs, but I really don't want to dump any money or time into this car. I don't know if the wheel bearing failures were a fluke, but my friend's wheel bearings went bad on him at around the same time mine did. My rear axle is still fine, but his is getting replaced because it broke. I personally know of one owner who had a DI seal failure on his car, but there are more here on the forum. The problem is, nobody knows why the failures are occuring. Is it because of the high oil temps? Who knows? The driving dynamics of the car are fantastic. So much so, that after my friend drove the car, he ditched his e36 M3 and decided to buy a totalled BRZ to strip out and use as a track car. I'm not so sure that was a great idea because he's going to have to do a lot of work to the car to keep it together with how much he punishes his cars.

[orthojoe]

Originally Posted by dp1

I have to ask because my lotus elise only has ABS and nothing else and I will drive the frs on track (Watkins Glen) for the first time this Mon/Tue. I don't need any nannies in dry but want added safety on a wet track...just don't know how much of what I should consider. Thank you

I hope someone else can chime in with frs AT nannies recommendation for wet track

experiment with it on/off and see for yourself. If you want added saftey, leave it on.

[ayau]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

I'm not sure how to elaborate, but i'll try. I don't know why the car won't hold an alignment. I'm sure there are solutions out there like toe links and LCAs, but I really don't want to dump any money or time into this car. I don't know if the wheel bearing failures were a fluke, but my friend's wheel bearings went bad on him at around the same time mine did. My rear axle is still fine, but his is getting replaced because it broke. I personally know of one owner who had a DI seal failure on his car, but there are more here on the forum. The problem is, nobody knows why the failures are occuring. Is it because of the high oil temps? Who knows? The driving dynamics of the car are fantastic. So much so, that after my friend drove the car, he ditched his e36 M3 and decided to buy a totalled BRZ to strip out and use as a track car. I'm not so sure that was a great idea because he's going to have to do a lot of work to the car to keep it together with how much he punishes his cars.

Just curious, is it the toe that's going out of spec? How about the front camber? I'm assuming you're using crash/camber bolts at the front and OEM rear control arms.

For the front camber, I think the shop manual suggests using brand new bolts each time you have to remove it.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

I'm not sure how to elaborate, but i'll try. I don't know why the car won't hold an alignment. I'm sure there are solutions out there like toe links and LCAs, but I really don't want to dump any money or time into this car. I don't know if the wheel bearing failures were a fluke, but my friend's wheel bearings went bad on him at around the same time mine did. My rear axle is still fine, but his is getting replaced because it broke. I personally know of one owner who had a DI seal failure on his car, but there are more here on the forum. The problem is, nobody knows why the failures are occuring. Is it because of the high oil temps? Who knows? The driving dynamics of the car are fantastic. So much so, that after my friend drove the car, he ditched his e36 M3 and decided to buy a totalled BRZ to strip out and use as a track car. I'm not so sure that was a great idea because he's going to have to do a lot of work to the car to keep it together with how much he punishes his cars.

Thanks - greatly appreciated.

When you say 'broken 2 wheel bearings' & 'wheel bearing went bad', do you mean that they developed play to the point where they needed replacement? Or did they simply collapse and the car became undriveable?

Do you know why your friend's axle quit on him? I've read of this issue in at least one other post here, but no longer recall if a cause was established - e.g., excessive lowering.

Unless there are serious engineering defects in the twins, I think the BRZ is going to be a cheaper track car than an E36 M3 could ever be, even if the M3s are fully debugged by now. Now, your friend may be the pioneer with the arrows in his back like Robert Stout is in his FR-S in World Challenge, but somebody's got to go first so that the rest of us can benefit from their experience, right?

[orthojoe]

Originally Posted by ayau

Just curious, is it the toe that's going out of spec? How about the front camber? I'm assuming you're using crash/camber bolts at the front and OEM rear control arms.

For the front camber, I think the shop manual suggests using brand new bolts each time you have to remove it.

I'm using whiteline camber bolts in the front. Everything else is stock. Toe AND camber get jacked up in the front and the rear (ok, just toe in the rear since camber isnt adjustable in the rear).

Originally Posted by dradernh

Thanks - greatly appreciated.

When you say 'broken 2 wheel bearings' & 'wheel bearing went bad', do you mean that they developed play to the point where they needed replacement? Or did they simply collapse and the car became undriveable?

developed play and noise and needed replacement. Still driveable.

Do you know why your friend's axle quit on him? I've read of this issue in at least one other post here, but no longer recall if a cause was established - e.g., excessive lowering.

We don't know why. He tracks it, but not a ton. His car is stock.

Now, your friend may be the pioneer with the arrows in his back like Robert Stout is in his FR-S in World Challenge, but somebody's got to go first so that the rest of us can benefit from their experience, right?

True, but he's not the type to be a pioneer. He wants low maintenance/fuss and is not the type to tinker around.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by dp1

Good question, I would say decent...usually work up the speed and tire squeal and rarely lose traction. Spun out (360) once in the lotus on the track (WGI) in the rain. I do see track as a perfect place to work on car control skills. Primary goal is smooth transitions (brake/shift/turn/gas), secondary is driving line.

Here are a couple of short clips showing the same driver in the wet at the Glen:

[ame="http://vimeo.com/6834339"]Aaron Povoledo Big Slide Rain Enduro Watkins Glen on Vimeo[/ame]
[ame="http://vimeo.com/6818237"]Aaron Povoledo at Watkins Glen 9-27-09 Sideways out of the esses on Vimeo[/ame]

The driver is on three-year old BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW tires in a RWD 2800# 155 RWHP car, and except for a modest spec-car suspension there's nothing trick about the car, so it's not entirely dissimilar to a twin. The car has no stability control or ABS.

You'll note that he's off the dry line except at the T1 turn-in and down the T1-T2 straight. Is that Main Straight-to-Back Straight line the sort of line you run in the rain; and, if so, do you know why you're running it and how to adjust that line depending upon the amount of water on the track? If not, I'd recommend keeping supporting stability software operational as that track can and will bite you in the wet in no time at all when you're driving on the dry line.

With or without stability control, and to the extent possible, keep your loaded tires off the concrete and off the innumerable sealant patches.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

[the wheel bearings] developed play and noise and needed replacement. Still driveable.

True, but he's not the type to be a pioneer. He wants low maintenance/fuss and is not the type to tinker around.

1) It may be that the OEM wheel bearings (and CV joints) need to be repacked with Red Line CV-2 or something similar: http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=82. That's always good insurance, even if the component isn't a known weak spot on a tracked street car. It's the equivalent of running high-temperature brake fluid. What I wonder is how long they'll hold up even when packed with Red Line - especially when drivers begin leaning heavily on them with 18" wheels and R6s, and with track-stiff suspensions.

2) That describes a Miata and a Miata driver to a tee. Those are arguably the smartest guys at the track when it comes to having safe, reliable, and low-cost fun.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by solidONE

What did you do for this guy and how do get a gig like that?

Also. It seem you like to go glove-less, but I'll ask here anyway. Any recommendation for those with sweaty hands? Preferably something on the cheap. Would it be not recommended to use just any old gloves like my light motorcycle gloves?

I was referred to him by another driver friend; he was looking to hire more instructors for a racing school. Instructors were hired based on attitude, trainability, and level of car control. Most of the guys I work with under him are actually pro drifters.

Relax your grip on the steering wheel first. Any gloves will work, although one with a SFI rating would be preferred, along with a long sleeve cotton shirt. Buy a pair at the annual Alpine Stars sale.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by dp1

Great, thanks. I've done about a dozen track days with my lotus elise in the past three years and I'm comfortable with driving on track. Planning to shift manually using paddles.

I wonder which nannies to disable. I don't really need any of them if the track is dry but would like to keep ABS on. Have AP Racing Sprint BBK and Carbotech XP12 for track.

Also, which nannies should be left on if the track is wet, just in case? Will bring shaved toyo proxes RA-1 for dry and Michelin PSS for wet.

Are you able to recognise *when* the nannies are assisting you? That's the key benchmark.

Originally Posted by dp1

I have to ask because my lotus elise only has ABS and nothing else and I will drive the frs on track (Watkins Glen) for the first time this Mon/Tue. I don't need any nannies in dry but want added safety on a wet track...just don't know how much of what I should consider. Thank you

I hope someone else can chime in with frs AT nannies recommendation for wet track

After seeing this post, I'd say use the pedal dance. You'll have zero nannies except the ABS.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

There is room for improvement for sure. However, it's easier said than done. Most of the time people end up chasing their tail. You can't change one thing without affecting something else. Make one part stiffer, and that force has to be transmitted to the next weak link. Will that part hold up? Will it adversely affect the car? Will equate to a faster lap time when driven properly?

My biggest issue with the BRZ platform is how weak the entire drivetrain seems to be. The alignment on my car never holds. After one track day, it's totally out of whack. I've broken 2 wheel bearings after the car's first three track days. My friend has a broken rear axle. The oil temps run really high. Then there's the whole direct injector seal failure issue. My BRZ now only sees the track on rain days. It's a nice DD, though...

What parts do you have? We've had zero issue with losing alignments (unlike the s2k...) Everything is held via nut/bolt, so it shouldnt move unless it's not properly tightened or you're spinning out and sliding pretty hardcore.

Broken rear axles (driver side inboard CV) is fairly common, but is usually HIGHLY accelerated by rough shifting. Slow down on the shifts, and don't shock the drivetrain.

Wheel bearings... is your knuckle straight? Front or rear?

[AZP Installs]

Originally Posted by dradernh

Here are a couple of short clips showing the same driver in the wet at the Glen:




The driver is on three-year old BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW tires in a RWD 2800# 155 RWHP car, and except for a modest spec-car suspension there's nothing trick about the car, so it's not entirely dissimilar to a twin. The car has no stability control or ABS.

You'll note that he's off the dry line except at the T1 turn-in and down the T1-T2 straight. Is that Main Straight-to-Back Straight line the sort of line you run in the rain; and, if so, do you know why you're running it and how to adjust that line depending upon the amount of water on the track? If not, I'd recommend keeping supporting stability software operational as that track can and will bite you in the wet in no time at all when you're driving on the dry line.

With or without stability control, and to the extent possible, keep your loaded tires off the concrete and off the innumerable sealant patches.

Aaron is quite the wheelman! He is a true professional who has been doing this daily for 20+ years.

That's why we have him as our Chief Instructor/Coach at the AZP Track Events. http://AZPTrackEvents.com for our June 2 NJMP Lightning Event.

His track walks are AMAZING too.

-mike

[AZP Installs]

Originally Posted by finch1750

It cuts, no forced shift.

That's good to know. I would drive it in Manual mode.

-mike

[kavanagh]

Originally Posted by AZP Installs

That's good to know. I would drive it in Manual mode.



-mike

To expand on this a little bit since we track our auto:

After you start the car, press the 'Sport' button that engages the sport mode in the tranny. THEN shift into manual mode. This will sharpen the shift speeds a tad. If you shift into manual mode BEFORE pressing the 'Sport' button, the mode will not engage and shifts will be a tad slower.

We just did a muffler delete and I can easily hear the difference in shift speeds. There's a glorious pop from the exhaust between shifts in sport manual vs sport auto or non-sport manual.

Edit: I should note that I could feel the difference prior to the muffler delete, but now I can really hear it much better.

Sent from a secret volcano base using trained sharks

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

There is room for improvement for sure. However, it's easier said than done. Most of the time people end up chasing their tail. You can't change one thing without affecting something else. Make one part stiffer, and that force has to be transmitted to the next weak link. Will that part hold up? Will it adversely affect the car? Will equate to a faster lap time when driven properly?

My biggest issue with the BRZ platform is how weak the entire drivetrain seems to be. The alignment on my car never holds. After one track day, it's totally out of whack. I've broken 2 wheel bearings after the car's first three track days. My friend has a broken rear axle. The oil temps run really high. Then there's the whole direct injector seal failure issue. My BRZ now only sees the track on rain days. It's a nice DD, though...

Wow... You know we got guys on here that are pushing over 300whp on the factory drivetrain with decent amount of milage. But, of course, they probably don't quite beat on it as hard as you or your friend. Maybe you should have went with a John Deere... what was the build date on you and or friend's BRZs?