Where's the white man comedian doing a set on black people?

[n2oinferno]

Originally Posted by YukiHachiRoku

someone's gonna be butthurt as fuck, and it ain't me lol..

I'm offended. Filming the television? AND VERTICAL!? Offended meter off the charts.

[AznBRZer]

Originally Posted by wheelhaus

This is a good discussion, I don't want it to grenade... We're seeing the same problem from polar opposite approaches and I'm beginning to think we share the same opinions on some things.

Yes, that exactly. We're not burning crosses, we're not whipping slaves, we're not segregating bathrooms or making anyone sit anywhere on a bus. We can ALL vote. I've met Mexican, Asian, Russian, African, Irish, Jewish, and (insert race here) business owners who are all very successful. Have you seen our president?

A (half)black man in the White House doesn't mean racism is over. I don't know how anyone can use that example with a straight face considering the increase in death threats and types of attacks on him and his family. Racism is alive and well and has always been stewing beneath the surface. If you ask people of color whether racism still exists and if it affects their daily lives negatively, a vast majority would say yes. The most puzzling recent poll I've read was that whites think that black people are more racist, which is interesting when dating back to polls in the 1930's on race relations, whites think that their relationship with black people are great! This particular poll has been conducted over the past 70 years and the results are relatively static, so what exactly does that say to you about the perspective of most white people on racism? What does that say about how racism is defined and how perceive it?

You're right, there are residual elements, such as affirmative action, random bigotry, special government/social programs based on race... Whatever it may be, continuing to segregate (even if it's only statistical) and provide special treatments (good or bad) based on race is perpetuating the problem and it all begins to fade when we stop making race so important when it's actually irrelevant. Many of these things were intended to aid, but ultimately are a detriment and cause more problems.

We all agree it's an ongoing issue, but it's a ginormous leap from what it used to be. A fizzle of a sentiment doesn't mean it's a burning epidemic.

If race was irrelevant, please explain the wealth gap, infant mortality rates, poverty rates, health outcomes, wage disparity, incarceration rates between various races?

I fail to see how race-based programs used to benefit people that were historically barred from access to jobs and resources as being a bad thing when certain groups are still effectively barred from them due to generational poverty.

Yes I did read it, and as wonderfully insightful as it is, it seems to potentially seek out racism where it may not exist. I do believe that we incite racism by seemingly harmless means (which is what Atwater was getting at, I believe). Take a job application for instance, that requires you to fill out race and sex. Why is this relevant to the job? It's because we keep pushing the racism topic and making it forefront where it needs to be made irrelevant. Eliminate this kind of bullshit, stop making racism a hot topic and (I believe) it fades even more.

Atwater was saying that the Southern Strategy doesn't require overtly racist language to appeal to racist whites anymore...all that's required is dog whistles and it still accomplishes the same goals. It's not that it's trying to seek out racism doesn't exist, but that it accepts the fact that racism does exist and plays off seemingly innocuous statements purposefully.

Advertising being an Equal Opportunity Employer to have a more diverse work force is not a bad thing when most work places are still mostly white by a large margin. People of color were just plain not hired.

Despite that, there are studies that demonstrate that merely having an ethnic name will increase the chances of discrimination in housing and employment applications. I'm pretty sure that black men aren't imagining being disproportionately targeted by law enforcement.

And yes I am shamed for being white. We carry a stain from or history that may never fade if racism keeps being popularized. We're not allowed to have the pride other races have. We're not allowed to have white-only scholarships or white only dating services. If we do have pride, we're instantly labelled as hateful racist bigoted pigs that are a disease to society. I'm not allowed to be offended by being called racist terms. I'm supposed to endure the burden because my ancestors did horrible things.

And this is where you completely lose me.

Racism isn't a fucking public relations campaign. Seriously, is there a lack of "white" things out there? Not enough white superheroes? Not enough whites in sitcoms? Not enough whites in government? Not enough white historical figures? Not enough whites in charge of stuff? Do slurs for whites have the same cultural baggage as calling someone a n*gger?

The vast majority of EVERYTHING is targeted to and for white folks. The reason why there needed to be a place carved out for the rest of us is specifically because we don't really have acceptance in most spaces nor do we get access to the same level and quality of resources. Not to mention that there isn't much that reflects us in media.

It's a double standard because we make it a double standard. It's an issue because we make race an issue. For instance, if we have a Rosa Parks Scholarship for some related education program, GREAT! Acknowledging a historical event is one thing, making it only available to black applicants is racist. If a young white male won the scholarship, would that be racist? Only if we choose to make it so.

Again, you don't solve inequities by changing the language around it nor does calling it even make things even. It goes beyond semantics.

Originally Posted by Dustin

Now that that's out in the open.........

They're just words. People get too offended from them. Maybe they're insecure about their own inner racism. But I do agree with Morgan Freeman in his video. There doesn't need to be a black history month, white history month, ect. Doing things like that and making it "okay" for one group and not another keeps racism alive and well. Same thing with colleges, scholarships, ect. It really needs to be an all or nothing. Either acceptable for all groups or unacceptable for all.

Hmmm...having a token month to focus(pay lip service) on black contributions to the US and history somehow keeps racism alive and well when most curriculum is focused on white folks anyways?

So if someone calls me a ch*nk, gook, slope, or zipperhead, I'M the one insecure about my "inner racism" as opposed to the (always a white)person being racist that called me that? Yeah OK.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

A (half)black man in the White House doesn't mean racism is over. I don't know how anyone can use that example with a straight face considering the increase in death threats and types of attacks on him and his family. Racism is alive and well and has always been stewing beneath the surface. If you ask people of color whether racism still exists and if it affects their daily lives negatively, a vast majority would say yes. The most puzzling recent poll I've read was that whites think that black people are more racist, which is interesting when dating back to polls in the 1930's on race relations, whites think that their relationship with black people are great! .....

I truncated your reply for the sake of scrolling, but just wanted to say this is one of the most cogent, and comprehensive replies I've ever seen on this board for a non-vehicle related topic.




Many people have thoughts (changeable) and even worse beliefs (unchangeable) about race that have very little analysis, historical discovery, or statistical bearing. It takes folks who are willing to discuss each point in the way you and @wheelhaus have (openly, and across the lines of one's own race) to shed light on the depth of race issues and also the importance of how discrimination of any person (race, gender, sexual orientation, physical ability/disability) affects every person.

[Superhatch]

I'd just like to point out that it's kind of ridiculous to be proud of something you have no control over, or didn't choose.

Being proud to be black/white/male/female etc just doesn't make any sense to me. You have ZERO say in the matter so what pride could you have?

I also think this applies to nationalism, especially for people who have never left their country. Proud to be American/Canadian/Spanish/Russian etc when you were born there and never ever lived anywhere else. You had zero choice in where you were born, then did nothing to change your station and somehow you have pride in it?

pride
prīd/Submit
noun
1. A feeling or deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements.

[Dustin]

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

Hmmm...having a token month to focus(pay lip service) on black contributions to the US and history somehow keeps racism alive and well when most curriculum is focused on white folks anyways?

Having that token month keeps fresh in everyone's mind that they are "black people" and not just people. How often do you hear in conversation "There was this guy I met the other day" but if that person is black "There was this black guy the other day,"? Why, because we feel the need to separate people into different groups and categories because of their differences. When that happens, it leads to people pointing out the differences in a negative or positive manner which leads to people getting their feelings hurt over other people think is better or worse. All that aside, it will NEVER go away. There will always be someone who thinks that because someone is different, that that person is a lesser being because of it. Which leads me to this.

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

So if someone calls me a ch*nk, gook, slope, or zipperhead, I'M the one insecure about my "inner racism" as opposed to the (always a white) person being racist that called me that? Yeah OK.

Anyone can call me a honkey, whitey, peckerwood, redneck, cracker, hillbilly, ect. and I wouldn't give 2 f*cks about it because I couldn't care less about what some random person who is an absolute nobody in my life thinks about my skin color or heritage. I promise you it wasn't white people who thought of and used all of the derogatory racist slurs to describe a white person like the ones I listed above. So you saying it is always a white person who slanders you, well other people of other colors slander whites as well. It happens in all groups of people. Does that mean everyone in that group is bad? No. But you felt it necessary to point out the fact that it is always a "white person" which implies that if it always a white person, well then the whole group is bad. Just shows that you have animosity of your own towards white people. I'm not ashamed of the history of America and how slavery was acceptable. That was well over 200 years ago and I didn't take part of it. I'm not going to feel sorry for you because someone might think less of you. There are plenty of successful people of all ethnicities, religions, sexual orientations, ect, and I'm sure they went through much of what others went through, if not even more given their successful status, and they didn't let that stop them. So in short, quit your whining, get over the fact that some people may think less of you based off of how you look and live your life. You're never going to make everyone happy so quit trying.

[AznBRZer]

Originally Posted by Superhatch

I'd just like to point out that it's kind of ridiculous to be proud of something you have no control over, or didn't choose.

Being proud to be black/white/male/female etc just doesn't make any sense to me. You have ZERO say in the matter so what pride could you have?

I also think this applies to nationalism, especially for people who have never left their country. Proud to be American/Canadian/Spanish/Russian etc when you were born there and never ever lived anywhere else. You had zero choice in where you were born, then did nothing to change your station and somehow you have pride in it?

Having pride, especially in being a member of a marginalized group like being a certain race and/or gay that has been or is still being discriminated against, is saying that there's nothing wrong with being who they are. Rather than being told to feel shameful about it, they take pride in carrying on despite the adversity and fight to be recognized as contributing members of society; not dregs.

pride
prīd/Submit
noun
1. A feeling or deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements.

I'm pretty sure we all know what the word means.

[AznBRZer]

Originally Posted by Dustin

Having that token month keeps fresh in everyone's mind that they are "black people" and not just people. How often do you hear in conversation "There was this guy I met the other day" but if that person is black "There was this black guy the other day,"? Why, because we feel the need to separate people into different groups and categories because of their differences.

Actually, it's a reflection of how our language is shaped by culture. If you paid even more attention, you'd realize that without the racial descriptor, the subject is almost always assumed to be white. The question you should be asking is why that is.

When that happens, it leads to people pointing out the differences in a negative or positive manner which leads to people getting their feelings hurt over other people think is better or worse.

Which is a result of how we're socialized to perceive people that belong to groups that are discriminated against.

All that aside, it will NEVER go away. There will always be someone who thinks that because someone is different, that that person is a lesser being because of it. Which leads me to this.

Anyone can call me a honkey, whitey, peckerwood, redneck, cracker, hillbilly, ect. and I wouldn't give 2 f*cks about it because I couldn't care less about what some random person who is an absolute nobody in my life thinks about my skin color or heritage.

Get back to me when the historical and social context of "honkey" matches that of "n*gger." TIA

Lemme give you a hint: Certain words were and are used as a threat of violence and sometimes death for generations. I'm pretty sure a vast majority of white people never had to deal with that and never will, so frankly, I couldn't care less about how you think how people of color should just suck it up either.

I promise you it wasn't white people who thought of and used all of the derogatory racist slurs to describe a white person like the ones I listed above.

I didn't realize that you so well versed in historical linguistics. Maybe you'd like to educate all of us on the etymology of those words?

So you saying it is always a white person who slanders you, well other people of other colors slander whites as well. It happens in all groups of people. Does that mean everyone in that group is bad? No. But you felt it necessary to point out the fact that it is always a "white person" which implies that if it always a white person, well then the whole group is bad. Just shows that you have animosity of your own towards white people.

It was a statement of fact. Maybe you should take your own advice and look into your own prejudices.

I'm not ashamed of the history of America and how slavery was acceptable. That was well over 200 years ago and I didn't take part of it. I'm not going to feel sorry for you because someone might think less of you. There are plenty of successful people of all ethnicities, religions, sexual orientations, ect, and I'm sure they went through much of what others went through, if not even more given their successful status, and they didn't let that stop them. So in short, quit your whining, get over the fact that some people may think less of you based off of how you look and live your life. You're never going to make everyone happy so quit trying.

Did I ask for your pity? I wanted you to reflect on your own statement that somehow the victim of racism should reflect on their own "inner racism." Do you understand how absurd that sounds? Are you about to call me the Real Racist because I talk about racism too?

Since you acknowledge that minorities of various stripes face more adversity than whites, then you realize that racism goes beyond words that we call eachother, but it's the actions and cultural forces that are behind them.

[Dustin]

Nevermind. This is becoming more antagonistic than anything else. I'll opt out.

[AznBRZer]

I spent some time on this so why let it go to waste and anyone can take up the same arguments. I edited out more personal attacks that don't address or bring up an issue.

They're just words. It is only how you let them affect you that makes the difference. And since when have you been called n*gger?

Oddly, enough, I have been. I've also been called a f*ggot, but I'm straight. What difference does it make if there's clearly a difference in the historical and current context of the words? Were Chinese people not strung up and killed for being Chinese? They probably weren't called ch*nks, but something a little more contemporary.

I doubt someone being called a *****, jigaboo, dago, kraut, peckerwood, or any of the others that have been mentioned automatically referred to violence or death. And even if it was, that generation is over. Get with the times and move on.

Those that would fall into the categories of dago, kraut, and peckerwood are considered white. Racism has had many faces and targeted people that are no longer considered "black." Nicolo Sacco and Bartolomeo Vanzetti might not have been executed if that were the case. Germans also had it bad enough that they had to form their own ethnic enclaves in separate villages back in the day.

Now you're just trying to antagonize instead of making valid points.

No, it's a completely valid point because you asserted that the origins of those words came from non-whites. Didn't you chide me for assuming things in the very first part of your post?

Or maybe you can explain how people being enslaved in a literal sense could be considered racist for using slurs and hating whites as if being a slave to whites is somehow comparable to being a white slaver.

I'd rather be the biggest crybaby in the world than opine on things I'm almost completely ignorant about and try to pass them off as fact.

I have friends of many diverse backgrounds. If I had my own prejudices I think it would be a more select group. My own children are of mixed races.

Having a black friend doesn't make you an expert on race and racism. Neither does having multi-racial children. We both have Japanese cars, but that doesn't mean we speak Japanese and automatically know how to completely disassemble it and put it back together.

Please explain why having non-white friends and/or having multi-racial kids makes you an authority on the issue of racism.

It was meant to be sarcastic. All I was getting at is that people get too offended from the use of words like you seem to be. There are far greater issues than someone yelling a racial slur at someone. If you want to get offended at something, get offended and make a stand again something that is TRULY offensive. Rape, murder, genocide, assaults, things of that nature. But to get so worked up over "someone called me a bad name ", seriously, grow up.

Actually, I'm getting worked up by your mountain of logical fallacies that you seem intent on building even higher. I've also been trying to focus on institutional racism, but you're hung up on me saying that countless white people have called me a racial slur. Oh and the last time I checked, that list of atrocities have instances where they've been committed based on racism; not every instance, but a big enough number of them to be considered a major factor.

I never said they do more than whites. Again, I'm not separating people into groups as you are. There have been gay white people that have been bashed for being gay and that are successful.

Hmmm...gay white males that are gay can do financially well despite being gay? You.don't.say. I wonder what the common denominators are...

The plural of anecdotes is not data. This is why categories matter when it comes to statistics, which is an important tool to solve these problems. You can't fix something if you don't know how it works.

[Superhatch]

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

I'm pretty sure we all know what the word means.

But I don't think you do. Being gay isn't an achievement. Being white isn't something you've worked very hard to become. It's just who you are. Having pride in an element of you that you have no control over is arrogant IMO.

Being prideful of the work you have done to further gay rights, Ok. Having pride in your work on making civil rights laws that protect people from discrimination, Ok. Being proud of the gay community that has worked hard for equal righst, Ok.

Being proud to be gay/white/black/native american/man/woman, as an individual, doesn't make any sense, specifically -because- of the definition of the word.

[wheelhaus]

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

A (half)black man in the White House doesn't mean racism is over. I don't know how anyone can use that example with a straight face considering the increase in death threats and types of attacks on him and his family. Racism is alive and well and has always been stewing beneath the surface. If you ask people of color whether racism still exists and if it affects their daily lives negatively, a vast majority would say yes. The most puzzling recent poll I've read was that whites think that black people are more racist, which is interesting when dating back to polls in the 1930's on race relations, whites think that their relationship with black people are great!

Did I ever say racism was over? No. I said that we've made progress. Do you think it was REMOTELY possible for a "half black man" to even be considered for any political position, let alone President??? Come on, stop arguing against everything I say simply for the sake of arguing.

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

If race was irrelevant, please explain the wealth gap, infant mortality rates, poverty rates, health outcomes, wage disparity, incarceration rates between various races?

I fail to see how race-based programs used to benefit people that were historically barred from access to jobs and resources as being a bad thing when certain groups are still effectively barred from them due to generational poverty.

I am only pointing out that anything like this is racist in one form or another because it promotes exclusivity. I hear what you're saying about white conventions, and of course it's true, but saying "well if you do it then we're gonna do it too" doesn't fix a damn thing, it just breeds more bitterness. We're never going to get past racial issues if we keep treating people differently, and I believe changing how these things are talked about is a big part of it. This country still has some growing up to do, but if laws are placed that force business to hire people of a specific race, how is that not JUST as racist as a business owner only hiring white people?

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

Advertising being an Equal Opportunity Employer to have a more diverse work force is not a bad thing when most work places are still mostly white by a large margin. People of color were just plain not hired.

Despite that, there are studies that demonstrate that merely having an ethnic name will increase the chances of discrimination in housing and employment applications. I'm pretty sure that black men aren't imagining being disproportionately targeted by law enforcement.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Why does "Equal Opportunity Employer" need to be advertised? This should be the status quo, not an advertisement.

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

And this is where you completely lose me.

Racism isn't a fucking public relations campaign. Seriously, is there a lack of "white" things out there? Not enough white superheroes? Not enough whites in sitcoms? Not enough whites in government? Not enough white historical figures? Not enough whites in charge of stuff? Do slurs for whites have the same cultural baggage as calling someone a n*gger?

The vast majority of EVERYTHING is targeted to and for white folks. The reason why there needed to be a place carved out for the rest of us is specifically because we don't really have acceptance in most spaces nor do we get access to the same level and quality of resources. Not to mention that there isn't much that reflects us in media.

I'm not losing you, you're simply refusing to understand anything beyond your own opinions. You're so hellbent on proving that white people are the problem that you're refusing to see any other perspective.

Oh and you're right, blacks aren't represented in the media at all. the Cosby Show, Tyler Perry, a bajillion other TV shows and rap artists, professional athletes, comedians... Yeah media representation of black people is in an appalling state in the US.

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

Again, you don't solve inequities by changing the language around it nor does calling it even make things even. It goes beyond semantics.

I agree. Changing our behavior and beliefs is how it's going to be minimized, but we simply disagree how best to accomplish that. You're oversimplifying and arguing every damn point I'm trying to make and I feel like I'm talking to an angry wall.

[Dustin]

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

I spent some time on this so why let it go to waste and anyone can take up the same arguments. I edited out more personal attacks that don't address or bring up an issue.

Oddly, enough, I have been. I've also been called a f*ggot, but I'm straight. What difference does it make if there's clearly a difference in the historical and current context of the words? Were Chinese people not strung up and killed for being Chinese? They probably weren't called ch*nks, but something a little more contemporary.

Those that would fall into the categories of dago, kraut, and peckerwood are considered white. Racism has had many faces and targeted people that are no longer considered "black." Nicolo Sacco and Bartolomeo Vanzetti might not have been executed if that were the case. Germans also had it bad enough that they had to form their own ethnic enclaves in separate villages back in the day.

No, it's a completely valid point because you asserted that the origins of those words came from non-whites. Didn't you chide me for assuming things in the very first part of your post?

Or maybe you can explain how people being enslaved in a literal sense could be considered racist for using slurs and hating whites as if being a slave to whites is somehow comparable to being a white slaver.

I'd rather be the biggest crybaby in the world than opine on things I'm almost completely ignorant about and try to pass them off as fact.

Having a black friend doesn't make you an expert on race and racism. Neither does having multi-racial children. We both have Japanese cars, but that doesn't mean we speak Japanese and automatically know how to completely disassemble it and put it back together.

Please explain why having non-white friends and/or having multi-racial kids makes you an authority on the issue of racism.

Actually, I'm getting worked up by your mountain of logical fallacies that you seem intent on building even higher. I've also been trying to focus on institutional racism, but you're hung up on me saying that countless white people have called me a racial slur. Oh and the last time I checked, that list of atrocities have instances where they've been committed based on racism; not every instance, but a big enough number of them to be considered a major factor.

Hmmm...gay white males that are gay can do financially well despite being gay? You.don't.say. I wonder what the common denominators are...

The plural of anecdotes is not data. This is why categories matter when it comes to statistics, which is an important tool to solve these problems. You can't fix something if you don't know how it works.

I don't think much of what I posted could be said is fact. I simply gave my opinions on the subject at hand. I do like though how you quote some of the things I say in response to what you said and then respond to them out of context from your original post. For example, you said

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

It was a statement of fact. Maybe you should take your own advice and look into your own prejudices.

to which I responded

I have friends of many diverse backgrounds. If I had my own prejudices I think it would be a more select group. My own children are of mixed races.

Your response after that.

Originally Posted by AznBRZer

Having a black friend doesn't make you an expert on race and racism. Neither does having multi-racial children. We both have Japanese cars, but that doesn't mean we speak Japanese and automatically know how to completely disassemble it and put it back together.

Please explain why having non-white friends and/or having multi-racial kids makes you an authority on the issue of racism.

So you say I have prejudices. I reply that I have many friends of diverse backgrounds and mixed race children. You say having a black friend doesn't make me an expert and neither does having multi-racial children. Never once did I say I was an expert or an authority on the matter. I only responded appropriately to your statement about me having prejudices only to have you twist it into something else.

We're both giving our opinions on this. I have yet to see many facts that aren't already widely known. Agree to disagree then. You win.

[00NissanNinja]

Originally Posted by wheelhaus

Oh and you're right, blacks aren't represented in the media at all. the Cosby Show, Tyler Perry, a bajillion other TV shows and rap artists, professional athletes, comedians... Yeah media representation of black people is in an appalling state in the US.

Please don't mention those shows, they really don't describe or even show a viewer how most blacks really are (the ones your mentioned by name). If anything they just reinforce stigmas and stereotypes that already have been spoon feed into people's subconscious.

At the end of the day, the world really is fucked regardless of your race just because of the circumstances we are randomly born into in this world. Sure progress has been made, but the animosity is still strong. Too much has been built up over the years and this is why things are the way they are. It would be great for all of us Americans to be treated on equal grounds. I'd like to see it. But probably never will.

[AznBRZer]

Originally Posted by Superhatch

But I don't think you do. Being gay isn't an achievement. Being white isn't something you've worked very hard to become. It's just who you are. Having pride in an element of you that you have no control over is arrogant IMO.

Being prideful of the work you have done to further gay rights, Ok. Having pride in your work on making civil rights laws that protect people from discrimination, Ok. Being proud of the gay community that has worked hard for equal righst, Ok.

Being proud to be gay/white/black/native american/man/woman, as an individual, doesn't make any sense, specifically -because- of the definition of the word.

Ugh...pedants are so annoying...

Context changes how words are interpreted. You're operating on the assumption that everyone starts off on a level playing field and are either equally accepted or equally marginalized. When it comes to being gay, it's NOT accepted as being "normal" by large swaths of the population, if not only by too many of those in power. This is not a case of "all things being equal..." If anything, it's the exact opposite.

Are you going to tell me that a f*ggot is a meatball and it's the only way that word should apply as well?