Shifting with a manual...

[Kayzer Soze]

neutral!? downshift!? then what's the handbrake for????

[B3yondL]

I'll stay in w/e gear I'm in letting engine do the braking while also lightly applying brake, and then clutch in/brake once I have to stop. Then go to first when it's time to move and so on. If traffic decides to move before I get a chance to full stop, I'll downshift to whatever gear is appropriate for the speed.

I can't imagine someone going down through all gears to stop, especially if it's city driving. If people are seriously doing that, that is just unnecessary wear on your clutch. Think of it like this; for every 100 times you downshift, depending on the person, there might be, for example, 5 times where you might not match 100% correctly. You can minimize that number by simply not downshifting so much unnecessarily. And even if you're some godlike epic pro cool driver that downshifts perfect, every time you engage the clutch that's it being used versus not, so...

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by racecat

I think it's fairly dependent on road conditions, tires, etc. I have slipped some when I downshifted my FR-S on ice, but in my truck with all-season tires, it's much better.

Not to preach to our Wise Master Humfrz, but the key is to be aware of your surroundings and not wait until the last minute to stop. Gentle downshifting is more controllable than dumping a gear anyway. Sometimes it's unavoidable but in those cases downshifting is usually not going to slow you fast enough on its own.

A radio host here years ago was famous for saying, "The brakes are not your friend!" every chance he got. My dad wouldn't let my mom forget after she spun out trying to avoid a squirrel.

Now, where did you get that "Wise Master Humfrz" idea ....

Obviously, you've never talked with mrs humfrz.....

Well, I do agree that the "secret to survival" is to be aware of your surroundings when driving a car (especially a few vehicles ahead).

Like you said, a lot depends upon road conditions. On dry roads, I feel the best method is to let off the gas; 2nd line of defense is to down shift and apply the brakes as a last line of defense.

On wet or snow covered roads, let off the gas then gently apply the brakes (especially with the ABS systems). I leave out the downshifting on snow/ice covered roads because I have experienced that when the rear wheels are abruptly slowed, the rear end tries to slide sideways....

Anyways, whatever combination works for you ......


humfrz

[bcj]

Theoretically it's down to the work involved to replace the wear items.
Brake pads and clutch plates are similar materials (they abrade anyway).
Changing a clutch plate is a major service item.
Brake pads are easier to get at, but there's four sets to cope with.

Motorcycle forums keep having the same discussion as well.

I don't ALWAYS do it either way. Whatever the feels.

[torqdork]

I heel-toe rev match downshift while braking (really a side-side rolling ball of the foot motion) taking care not to exceed 4K-5K rpm when engaging the lower gear, usually even lower rpm than that, down to 2nd gear and then neutral to a full stop.

I'm sort of addicted to the perfect tone of the Perrin unresonated catback, feel of the fat TRD 8-ball knob and precise shift gate of the stock setup. Keeps me tuned for auto-x and track days and is also why I apex most of the corners while staying in my lane.

I've driven all of my manual trans cars that way since...forever. I've yet to replace a clutch or trans, just changed out the fluids to full synthetics and avoided unnecessary driveline shock.

These things are built for driver involvement and enjoyment and that's part of the fun factor for me.

[racecat]

Originally Posted by humfrz

Now, where did you get that "Wise Master Humfrz" idea ....

Obviously, you've never talked with mrs humfrz.....

Well, I do agree that the "secret to survival" is to be aware of your surroundings when driving a car (especially a few vehicles ahead).

Like you said, a lot depends upon road conditions. On dry roads, I feel the best method is to let off the gas; 2nd line of defense is to down shift and apply the brakes as a last line of defense.

On wet or snow covered roads, let off the gas then gently apply the brakes (especially with the ABS systems). I leave out the downshifting on snow/ice covered roads because I have experienced that when the rear wheels are abruptly slowed, the rear end tries to slide sideways....

Anyways, whatever combination works for you ......


humfrz

I've just seen you around and am familiar with the quality of your posts.

You bring up another good point. The FR-S is my first vehicle with ABS. My truck's brakes will lock up if I rely on them too much to stop on ice or slush.

I don't yet have the instinct to let the ABS do the work. Still learning!

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by racecat

I've just seen you around and am familiar with the quality of your posts.

You bring up another good point. The FR-S is my first vehicle with ABS. My truck's brakes will lock up if I rely on them too much to stop on ice or slush.

I don't yet have the instinct to let the ABS do the work. Still learning!

Y thank ya, there racecat .....

Yep, I'll bet you will find that a vehicle with ABS will stop pretty good, if one allows the ABS to do it's thing ..... i.e. don't keep pumping them .... like in the old days ....

Have a great week!


humfrz

[stugray]

A few comments:

1 - I typically downshift a lot and use it to setup for corner exit speed. Even when DDing.

2 - As for downshifting wearing your clutch: Downshifting properly with rev match does not wear out your cluth at all. Proof? - I can downshift from 6th to 2nd without using the clutch at all.

3 - Engine braking helps wear the rings more evenly. The breakin procedure tells you to use engine braking because it helps set the rings at first. By swiching from acceleration to engine braking, you are reversing the pressure on the rings forcing them to work both ways.

4 - Just a habit, but I was taught to never downshift to 1st. I only shift into first if stopped or moving at a snail's pace.

5 - I have an inherent fear of riding the clutch, so I keep the 'holding the clutch in' to a bare minimum. With all the talk of wearing out components, I'd be pissed if I needed to replace the throwout bearing while still having a perfectly good clutch. Even when starting the car, I try to get off the clutch as soon as possible.

6 - When deccelarating for a corner using a downshift to slow the car instead of the brakes: it frees up more front cornering force because the rears are doing all of the braking. This is impossible to do with the brakes alone unless you have a brake bias valve and adjust it while driving.

7 - Downshifting makes it less likely to spin when slippery? - I am with Humfrz and feel the exact opposite. Braking is more exact and precise than downshifting. Downswhifting on ice is a serious No-No in my book.

[MokSpeed]

Pop into neutral and brake to a stop. Brakes are way cheaper to replace.

[wheelhaus]

Originally Posted by stugray

A few comments:

1 - I typically downshift a lot and use it to setup for corner exit speed. Even when DDing.

I do as well, trying to maintain momentum while driving. My wife's habits irritate me when she's doing 15 under, stuck behind the only car on the road... When there's two perfectly clear open lanes beside us.

Originally Posted by stugray

2 - As for downshifting wearing your clutch: Downshifting properly with rev match does not wear out your cluth at all. Proof? - I can downshift from 6th to 2nd without using the clutch at all.

This is actually a very bad habit, unless timed perfectly, you're dragging the synchros while trying to push into 2nd. With a proper rev match, the clutch plates are engaged at the same speed, so ideally it's no different than sitting in your driveway with the engine off, pushing the clutch pedal. The only thing that's seeing usage is the throwout bearing and clutch springs.

Originally Posted by stugray

3 - Engine braking helps wear the rings more evenly. The breakin procedure tells you to use engine braking because it helps set the rings at first. By swiching from acceleration to engine braking, you are reversing the pressure on the rings forcing them to work both ways.

The rings are under compression in the same direction regardless of accel or engine braking. [/quote]

Originally Posted by stugray

4 - Just a habit, but I was taught to never downshift to 1st. I only shift into first if stopped or moving at a snail's pace.

This is typically agreed upon un,less it's necessary, such as autocross or frequent stop/go snail pace crawling.

Originally Posted by stugray

5 - I have an inherent fear of riding the clutch, so I keep the 'holding the clutch in' to a bare minimum. With all the talk of wearing out components, I'd be pissed if I needed to replace the throwout bearing while still having a perfectly good clutch. Even when starting the car, I try to get off the clutch as soon as possible.

Originally Posted by stugray

6 - When deccelarating for a corner using a downshift to slow the car instead of the brakes: it frees up more front cornering force because the rears are doing all of the braking. This is impossible to do with the brakes alone unless you have a brake bias valve and adjust it while driving.

I hear what you're saying, but I think you're giving the physics too much emphasis. I don't think using engine braking to control vehicle speed is the best tool for the job. On the track, you need to be accelerating, braking, or cornering at/near maximum levels; coasting is a sin. On the street it's a little different, but coasting to enter a turn isn't utilizing the car's grip levels enough to allow engine braking to affect front grip to any appreciable level.

Originally Posted by stugray

7 - Downshifting makes it less likely to spin when slippery? - I am with Humfrz and feel the exact opposite. Braking is more exact and precise than downshifting. Downswhifting on ice is a serious No-No in my book.

I agreee, it can be done smoothly and have a slight effect, but for this purpose (slippery surfaces) it's much more effective in AWD or FWD platforms to apply some resistance to the drive wheels. It's roughly the same as lightly applying the handbrake, which isn't a good idea on slippery surfaces unless you specifically want the rear end to lose grip.

[stugray]

Originally Posted by wheelhaus

This is actually a very bad habit, unless timed perfectly, you're dragging the synchros while trying to push into 2nd.

Understood. I only did it to prove that I was rev matching correctly.

Originally Posted by wheelhaus

The rings are under compression in the same direction regardless of accel or engine braking.

Not true.
When accelerating normally (during the combustion stroke) the cylinders are under pressure and the rings are pressed towards the bottom of the piston.

When engine braking (during the combustion stroke) the cylinders are under less pressure (and vacuum for some of the stroke) and the rings are pressed to the front of the piston more than during the combustion stroke while accelerating.

It has been SOP to do as much engine braking as possible with brand new rings since before Moses (I think it was the 11th commandment)

[Hot Lava]

What I'll never do again..... Skip gears at speed. Nub shifted from 6th to 2nd instead of 4th as I approached a passing lane in the mountains. That's how I know there's a red engine rev limit light. OOOOps!

[chrisl]

That's a huge fear of mine when driving fast in a manual car (though the more usual mis-shift is to accidentally go from 3rd to 2nd while accelerating (instead of straight back into 4th). There are plenty of videos online of people doing that on a track and blowing their motor.

[CamryDS]

Okay this is a noob question..

When coming to a stop -- what are steps for "downshifting"?
Does this mean: Clutch in --> shift --> clutch out?
OR
Does it mean: Clutch in -> shift over to the appropriate gear (keeping the clutch in) --> shift down --> shift down --> shift down --> reached 10 miles or slower --> leave in neutral --> clutch out?

I don't see how a person can go from 6 to 2 in about a few seconds (10-15), while managing to come to a stop while rev matching into the gear as they slow down.

Eg. from 6th --> clutch in --> shift to 5th --> clutch out --> clutch in --> shift to 4th --> clutch out --> clutch in --> shift to 3rd --> clutch out --> clutch in --> shift to 2nd --> clutch out --> clutch in --> shift to neutral --> clutch out.... this is quite hard while slipping into each gear while trying to rev match.

I'm "downshifting" (as the 2nd example) It's probably bad, but I think when i'm coasting to a stop that would be the easiet way... if I had to jump into gear and go while i'm doing so, i'm in the right gear... so then I would just slip the gear in with the clutch and then go...

I've been driving manual for just a little over a year and i'm still confused when people say down shift while coming to a stop.

I use to do (from 6th):
brake --> clutch in --> shift to 3rd --> clutch out --> brake --> clutch in --> shift to neutral --> clutch out --> stop.

But I saw that was bad as well...

any advice here?