Greddy vs avo stage 1 Pros and cons of each

[AllDayJonRay]

Originally Posted by Sellout

And yet, Greddy turbo kits for non-turbo cars always ignore the bov. Some people add one, some don't.
...[WEIGHT REDUCTION]...
Plus they know that the magazines are out there telling everyone who will listen that if they don't have a bpv, their turbo is going to blow up, potentially effecting how many people buy the product.

No offense, but this is wrong. Greddy turbo kits have been selling them this way for a long time, this is true. But it's untrue that you can't find cases of their turbos failing. But remember that I said it's a longevity concern. Most tuners, not all, but most, do not ever run their factory NA engines with these kits long enough to experience the damages firsthand (many kits are removed, many engines grenade, etc..). So you may have an argument on that point (if the owner doesn't plan on keeping the car into its old age). OE manufacturers use bpv's because they are PROVEN to increase the longevity of the turbocharger, as well as improving drivability. They've proven this by using the millions of dollars you refer to for R&D. Trust me that if manufacturers only found that there is a 'slim' chance of bpv's increasing tc longevity, they wouldn't be putting them on cars. They'd be more than happy to reduce the manufacturing cost of vehicles by leaving that 'unnecessary' part out. You have it backwards, more parts installed means more parts that could fail and require warranty replacement... They're not adding parts on the off chance that it just might mean a warranty claim or two less.

If OE manufacturers have spent all the money to do all the testing, and came to a consensus that its a good idea to use bpv's on tc'd engines, why on earth should we ignore their opinions/findings and save the ~$2-300 it costs to install one?

OE manufacturers were using bpv's well before your magazine advertisement theory could possibly apply. And its a bit silly to think that OE manufacturers would cave to the 'influence' that magazine ads have over consumers...

[Sellout]

But it's untrue that you can't find cases of their turbos failing.

It's easy to say that, but where are they? According to what you say they should be failing all over the place. To say we don't see it because people take the kits off and sell them is disingenuous at best. The vast majority of those kits get sold to other people who will install and use them, if they don't stay on the car on which they were originally installed.

It seems almost as if you're taking what I said to mean that his turbo can't or won't fail because of the lack of a BPV. That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that the lack of a BPV on his low boost turbo engine with a cute little paperweight of a turbo does not guarantee failure. It MIGHT fail due to the lack of that valve.

How many factory turbo engines run low boost?

And its a bit silly to think that OE manufacturers would cave to the 'influence' that magazine ads have over consumers...

Says you. I think it's ridiculous to assume that influence is ignored by the OE manufacturers.

They'd be more than happy to reduce the manufacturing cost of vehicles by leaving that 'unnecessary' part out. You have it backwards, more parts installed means more parts that could fail and require warranty replacement... They're not adding parts on the off chance that it just might mean a warranty claim or two less.

It's just not that easy. It's a case of preventative parts and labor cost vs the possible parts and labor costs for warranty repairs. This should be completely obvious. What does a knock sensor cost? How about a replacement engine? That's extreme, but you get the idea. The BPV is a fraction of the cost of a turbo and the labor involved in replacing it, not to mention the customer demanding a loaner car for the repair time.

OE manufacturers were using bpv's well before your magazine advertisement theory could possibly apply.

That's a guess if I've ever seen one.

AGAIN, I'm not saying it absolutely will not fail. I'm saying that your claim that it absolutely will fail is baseless. It's his car and his $300 to save by taking the manufacturer's word that a BPV isn't necessary.

No offense

Not offended at all, and I hope this discussion doesn't offend you either. This is what online forums are all about. Ridiculous as it seems, people can and do learn some things from this back and forth...

[AllDayJonRay]

Originally Posted by Sellout

It's easy to say that, but where are they? According to what you say they should be failing all over the place. To say we don't see it because people take the kits off and sell them is disingenuous at best. The vast majority of those kits get sold to other people who will install and use them, if they don't stay on the car on which they were originally installed.

It's not disingenuous. Nothing I said should make you believe that we see these turbos failing left and right. All I said was that you can't act like the fact that Greddy has been selling kits without bpv/bov's for a long time is some kind of evidence that bpv's aren't a good idea. I listed a couple of simple reasons why you might not hear about it if/when there are failures. For example, most people don't bother complaining on a forum about a turbo that failed on a second-hand kit... Not to mention, most people simply don't post on forums when their cars break.

It seems almost as if you're taking what I said to mean that his turbo can't or won't fail because of the lack of a BPV. That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that the lack of a BPV on his low boost turbo engine with a cute little paperweight of a turbo does not guarantee failure. It MIGHT fail due to the lack of that valve.

That's not what I said at all. I said that this type of compressor surge DOES cause damage to turbochargers, its just not as catastrophic as compressor surge under load. When the throttle plate slams shut and nothing releases the pressure in the charge pipes, its like slamming a break on your turbocharger. It adds to normal wear and tear, which is the same as 'causing damage'.

How many factory turbo engines run low boost?

A lot, and they all run bpv's, regardless of factory boost level.

It's just not that easy. It's a case of preventative parts and labor cost vs the possible parts and labor costs for warranty repairs. This should be completely obvious. What does a knock sensor cost? How about a replacement engine? That's extreme, but you get the idea. The BPV is a fraction of the cost of a turbo and the labor involved in replacing it, not to mention the customer demanding a loaner car for the repair time.

You're trying to make a point that bpv's can be left out, and you draw a parallel with knock sensors? OEMs use both, because they feel that it is necessary and/or cost effective to use both. I'll restate: If OE manufacturers didn't see a benefit in using bpv's, they would absolutely leave them out. You just said yourself that its a preventative part... If manufacturers didn't see that there was anything worth preventing, they wouldn't use them. And if they believe there's value in the money it costs to design, manufacturer and implement this part, I'll ask again, on what grounds are you arguing against that logic?

Says you. I think it's ridiculous to assume that influence is ignored by the OE manufacturers.

That's a guess if I've ever seen one.

It's not a guess at all. It's a simple deduction. Where do you think aftermarket companies get their ideas and designs from? You think the aftermarket was first in deciding to put bpv's on engines? OE manufacturers used bpv's before the first aftermarket bov was ever sold. Did I research for proof? Hell no, its not worth the time. A simple understanding of where aftermarket ideas come from is solid enough reasoning to keep me from wasting my time to prove that point.

AGAIN, I'm not saying it absolutely will not fail. I'm saying that your claim that it absolutely will fail is baseless. It's his car and his $300 to save by taking the manufacturer's word that a BPV isn't necessary.

I said that a lack of a bpv will cause damage to the turbine bearings over a long period of use. I never said anything like "don't drive without a bpv, your shit will blow up". Just that running a setup like this DOES add to wear and tear on your turbocharger, and definitely can lead to prematurely failure.

I just wanted to share the knowledge that running without a bpv is NOT healthy for turbochargers. Even if you were indifferent to the potential long term consequences, the performance and drivability improvements are still worth the money to install one.

[SliverBrz]

holy crap this thread got derailed hard lol

anyways im leaning towards avo for a few reasons.

[Sellout]

All I said was that you can't act like the fact that Greddy has been selling kits without bpv/bov's for a long time is some kind of evidence that bpv's aren't a good idea.

Nobody on planet earth has ever tried to insinuate that BPVs are not a good idea, come on man. This conversation is a waste of time.

Originally Posted by SliverBrz

holy crap this thread got derailed hard lol

anyways im leaning towards avo for a few reasons.

Yeah that happens. Did you post your reasons and I just missed them?

[SliverBrz]

anyone have an AVO in socal that can show me?

I can meet you LA/OC

[AllDayJonRay]

Originally Posted by Sellout

This conversation is a waste of time.

Well there's at least one thing we agree on.