FR-S Trim levels...

[RRnold]

Originally Posted by corbin

Because right now its the performance benchmark. Nothing else comes close to its performance at a reasonable price... GT-R's and Viper's are close in terms of performance but they cost twice as much.

Originally Posted by Dimman

I think you have the wrong idea of what this car is supposed to be. It will likely be competing with the current Miata and that's about it. If we are lucky it will be track-competitive with a Porsche Cayman (not the 'S' though).

We don't even know the engine configuration yet but I can tell you, like others here, this FR-S is definitely not Toyota's flagship sports car so it's not even safe to compare.

It's a very entry level just like how the '85 GTS was. So maybe WRX, Mazda 3, IS350 territory.

[Dimman]

Think of it this way. When the S2000 came out it targeted the Z3, Boxster, SLK, and TT. Kicked some serious ass there too. But the FR-S will be only about 2/3rds the price of an S2000. Now think of what the competition and benchmarks will be. Not much to compare it to in the RWD area, Miata (anything else?). Maybe if we go into FWD competition Toyota may hope to steal some sales from the Mini, GTi, Civic Si?

[Midship Runabout]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Errr... to which thing?

mk4>mk* like matador said.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Isn't the saying this: "Cheap, Fast, Reliable. Pick 2."

Ive always loved this saying.
FT86- Cheap and reliable
Z06- Fast and reliable

Originally Posted by RRnold

How come you keep resulting back to a Z06? That's apples and oranges in comparison.

Originally Posted by Dimman

.Not much to compare it to in the RWD area, Miata (anything else?).

Genesis

[MtnDrvr86]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Think of it this way. When the S2000 came out it targeted the Z3, Boxster, SLK, and TT. Kicked some serious ass there too. But the FR-S will be only about 2/3rds the price of an S2000. Now think of what the competition and benchmarks will be. Not much to compare it to in the RWD area, Miata (anything else?). Maybe if we go into FWD competition Toyota may hope to steal some sales from the Mini, GTi, Civic Si?

exactly! and the now officially green-lit VW midengine roadster

[Midship Runabout]

Originally Posted by MtnDrvr86

exactly! and the now officially green-lit VW midengine roadster

Link? or details?

[MtnDrvr86]

Originally Posted by Dixie Normous

Link? or details?

http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...roduction.html

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/01/r...e-green-light/

http://www.dailytech.com/Report+VW+B...ticle18912.htm

maybe toyota can make a new mr2/s to compete directly with this, perhaps with a nice new boxer engine? :P

[S2KtoFT86]

Originally Posted by corbin

Not if you have to spend more on modifications than the giant costs in the first place! We both know that numbers alone don't account for how the power is actually delivered... I bet the dyno graphs on these F20's show them to be pretty peaky and difficult to drive.

A true giant killing engine is something over engineered and therefore ready for tons of boost like the 4G63 or even Nissan's KA24DE. Iron block I4's FTW. Although Mitsubishi's new motor (Evo X) is even better then the 4G63 and its aluminum.

People seem to assume that having a motor with a good top end and a good low end are mutually exclusive... they aren't. We don't have to settle for one or the other, KA24DE-T's and 4G63's are examples. They both have gobs of torque as well as a flowing head and injection system that allow for top end as well.

As for the post above mine... beating a Supra isn't all that big of a deal, all fanboyism aside. Z06's, Cobras, 240SX w/ KA-T, 20B RX-7's, Evo's are all faster.

S14 240SX KA-T vs. Toyota Supra T67

KA-T @ 15psi 67mm VS C6 z06 boltons

See what I mean?

Don't get me wrong... I'm not arguing for drag racing - that obviously isn't what this car is about. I'm just hoping that it has the straight line speed to be competitive on the road racing track.

Again, and the F20 wasn't overengineered and ready for tons of boost? Also, 800hp can be had with around 20k which now, would put total cost of that and the car itself into the 30's, close to 40. Nowhere near the 80k+ that a GTR costs.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Dixie Normous

Genesis

Err... Seriously? It never even occurred to me to compare the two. Price maybe, but everything else? Cheap? Check. Reliable? Getting better than old Tiburons and Ponys. Fast? Maybe? I really don't know much about this car aside from Hyundai thinks they're competing with the G37 with the V6 version.

It just doesn't seem like the same class of car. More Korean Grand Tourer vs Japanese Sports Car. Totally different for me at least.

[Midship Runabout]

Originally Posted by corbin

Well then I think you guys are going to be pleasantly surprised at the performance of this car when it comes out. Just because it is designed to compete in a certain market segment doesn't mean that it won't have huge modified potential. The ingredients are all there - double wishbone suspension, low COG/weight, balance, the only thing it really needs to really be a competitor at the top level is an engine up to the task, which is what I was originally speculating about.

You guys also seem to be forgetting that this car is one of the first of a completely new generation of cars... all of the top cars out right now are being produced on improved versions of OLD chassis, whereas the FR-S is being engineered from scratch. I know the speculation is Impreza platform, but is this anything more than speculation? Regardless, its going to be much different.

If 240's aren't proof that entry level sports cars can compete in higher classes then I don't know what else to say.

What about the G-Sports version? Toyota is already teasing us with performance versions of the FR-S because they know of its potential.

I get what your saying. And im all for the built not bought philosophy, but its gonna be years until this car will be competitive.

Originally Posted by Dimman

Err... Seriously? It never even occurred to me to compare the two. Price maybe, but everything else? Cheap? Check. Reliable? Getting better than old Tiburons and Ponys. Fast? Maybe? I really don't know much about this car aside from Hyundai thinks they're competing with the G37 with the V6 version.

It just doesn't seem like the same class of car. More Korean Grand Tourer vs Japanese Sports Car. Totally different for me at least.

Its not really. Im just thinking of FR cars in production right now.

[Matador]

I have no doubt that the FR-S will be quick. 0-60 6.5 seconds, 1/4 mile low 14s, ~100ft 60-0 braking, 1:30 round top gears track, 8:25-8:40 on the 'ring.

It will not be a Z06/GT-R/911 killer. TYhe turbo version...stock no. Tuned? Sure. But it will cost you.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Dixie Normous

I get what your saying. And im all for the built not bought philosophy, but its gonna be years until this car will be competitive.

I don't think it will be that long, but it will take a long while before it can be done with the kind of $$ you can build a 240 for.

[Midship Runabout]

Originally Posted by MatadorRacing_F1

I don't think it will be that long, but it will take a long while before it can be done with the kind of $$ you can build a 240 for.

Thats more what I meant.

[Dark]

I though FT-86 was built to be drift legend, which is why they are focusing on handling more than power. I could be wrong, but I think it makes more sense when a small light weight car rather be a drifter car than be a giant killer.
on the side note, RX-7 is a halo car, yes. It's a legendary drift car, unlike Supra MK4 or Skyline R34. Then again, I could be wrong.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Dark

I though FT-86 was built to be drift legend, which is why they are focusing on handling more than power. I could be wrong, but I think it makes more sense when a small light weight car rather be a drifter car than be a giant killer.
on the side note, RX-7 is a halo car, yes. It's a legendary drift car, unlike Supra MK4 or Skyline R34. Then again, I could be wrong.

It's strange that more people don't drift the Supra. With its wheelbase and balance it makes for very predictable drifts. (Maybe the MK4s are too expensive and the MK3's aren't cool enough.)

A vid of Orido in his old RS-R Mk4:

This FR-S may be less happy in a drift with a shorter wheelbase and more centralized mass.