In Love With My RSR Black-i Coilovers!

[FLIPs_FR-S]

@diss7 looks great! If you don't mind me asking what are your wheel and tire specs?

Sent from SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE. KEEP CALM AND CHIVE ON.

[diss7]

Originally Posted by FLIPs_FR-S

@diss7 looks great! If you don't mind me asking what are your wheel and tire specs?

Sent from SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE. KEEP CALM AND CHIVE ON.

18x9 +35, 225/40 nitto Invos

[diss7]

So, I've just been for a big drive around my favourite roads, and some regular roads and motorways.

On the regular "a to b" roads, daily driving, motorways, these coilovers are fantastic. I softened the front and rear to halfway, and it drives more comfortably than stock, I shit you not. It doesn't ride like a slammed car at all.

Now once I got too my favourite roads, which would be best described as Tarmac rally stages (if you've ever driven around Banks peninsula/Port Hills near Christchurch, you'll understand) my elation turned to disappointment. Braking is improved as the car remains flatter. But in the bends, it is much disappoint.

What I should add at this point, is that I haven't had an alignment yet. I sense that my rear has too much toe in, and the front doesn't have enough toe out. Now I'll also add, and I stress this point, that I don't believe the coilovers are the issue here, I believe it's the height I have them set to. Never the less I want to share my impressions.

Initial turn in seems better and worse at the same time. I feel as if I am getting some push understeer, however I believe this will be front toe related. Beyond inital turn in, I can feel the front benefiting from the extra front camber, but what becomes immediately apparent at this point is how much body roll has increased. It is significant.

Before I put these in, I did preempt some of these issues, so already have parts on order to counter these issues. These being Whiteline tie rod ends/roll centre adjusters, front and rear sway bars and rear toe arms.

The point I want to get across is that if you get these coilovers (or indeed any others than are set to 50mm lower or more) you will need other parts if you want to still drive the car like a sports car, without having to raise it when you want to do so.

Exactly what you need, I don't know. But I think the parts I have coming are hopefully what is needed.

I'm going to start a thread now about this, as I'd like to get some convo going about creating a good suspension model at this height, or whether it's even possible.

I'll reiterate, I have no issue with these coilovers, I think they're fantastic. I think my car looks fantastic at the height too. I just don't like the fact that it handles worse now. I'm not going to track it as it is, I know I've lost a good 3 seconds a lap at a guess.

[Moto-P]

Originally Posted by diss7

I'll reiterate, I have no issue with these coilovers, I think they're fantastic. I think my car looks fantastic at the height too. I just don't like the fact that it handles worse now. I'm not going to track it as it is, I know I've lost a good 3 seconds a lap at a guess.

Originally Posted by diss7

What makes me disappoint, is how badly the car now handles when given a workout. Taking it around roads I'm can really hammer on, it's noticeably worse. I do have some parts coming to correct what I am hoping is causing these problems, but I'm really surprised at how different the car is behaving.

Is it possible to correct what riding at this height causes?

To quote myself from the post I left in the RSR review thread...

I'm not trying to have the best or fastest car, I'm prepared to lose some handling from an optimal setup to run this height, but I'd like that to be only a small concession, not the massive concession I feel this setup has made.

I'd really like to clarify a couple of things. (I've posted this in similar other threads too...)

The Black-i is a STREET specification coil over system, which is designed to satisfy the users who are into the fashionable trend of lowering a car extensively for the visual and stylistic elements. On an Scion FRS/Subaru BRZ/Toyota 86 siblings, like most other cars, do have very inherent issued that is outside of the shocks and struts, such as dynamic and static alignment going excessively out of performance oriented parameters.
And one should ALWAYS know going in, that ANY suspension drop that is as excessive as over 40mm in ride height, and modified with shocks and springs only, is going to have decreased levels of performance. This is because the suspension arms, various alignment links, sheer space under the wheel housing, and other factors will reach a point where the ideal requirements are not met. The Black-i are designed for those who will ignore or further modify on his/her own, about the performance aspect, as there are some enthusiasts, who simply want a very visually stunning car, that can be driven comfortably on the public roads.
That being said, the highest setting of the Black-i is near 40mm, so at this height that is closer to normal, the Black-i does retain the vehicle's alignment quite well, and can serve as normal suspension, though it isn't the primary role for this... The Black-i was designed for people who just wants to go lower than this. Which is why the spec starts at 40mm below to a whopping 55~80mm below, which at maximum drop, is in a territory of requiring cutting and welding, and lots of suspension arm modifications too in various places.

Now that being said, so why are Black-i available then? If all it does is decrease performance?
It is because it isn't catered to the folks who want ultimate performance or normal functionality. It is catered to those who love the hot rod sled, the lowered to the max look, just as there are those who love to set cars up on airbags, or cut and hack a truck to drop a body or put gull-wing doors on the cars. There is nothing wrong with choosing to do that, and Black-i are designed for those who go beyond the normal parameters to have that look, the stance, and to help people who do this, to find the best possible ride on such goals that have very limited suspension stroke, and out of spec dynamic alignment, to have the most decent ride so it is at least useful still, as a street car. It is designed as a capable tool and part to handle a drop that is bolt-on street-able spec, at 40~45mm or so and still be a comfortable street car with stunning looks. And just like Sports-i, the track-ready sibling that can take to the performance edges, this Black-i is designed to go beyond that for those who want to delve further into styling edges, by further going into that realm by fabricating arms, hammering and cutting, and fabricating their own rides to extremes in style in the very different world of custom-cars, and if one fancies, correcting all of the inherent alignment issues even at this height with highly extensive mods in other areas, to actually make it handle at ridiculous height too, as seen in some of the highly modified D1 cars with rails just skimming the ground... But, as for simple bolt-on, one must always be aware that there are critical parameters which can't be overcome simply by installing coil-overs, and with that in mind, if Black-i is the only component being used, there are limits to what can be done.

So please don't make any assumptions whatsoever that the Black-i is good for any motorsports activity. It isn't designed for that at all. It is a good product for the enthusiasts and builders who build show cars, and enjoy a road car that is extremely low, and willing to live with limitations inherent to stock chassis components, or do much more to the cars to make things work.


The Sports-i is designed around a very different principle... I have optimized the Sports-i to be a very capable road vehicle, with road manners, communication, tactile response, and overall performance. This is why the Sports-i with different specifications of piston length, valve rates, spring rates, and geared to perform on road comfortably and has the upper ceiling to accommodate track uses, and optional rates to take it even more towards motorsports oriented uses.


These two coilover systems are VERY different in goals and targeted intended use.
As such, the mentions and promotions, accolades should never overlap for the two very distinct products, as they aim to do very different things to a very different types of enthusiasts.

While the mono-tube patented design is very capable and ideal for use in all of RSR's products, and is the type of design RSR takes pride in building in-house. The settings, and application designs are very different for each product goal, and each vehicle applications. And while other suspension makers might mention otherwise, and sell you a single product that can do it all.

As a outside consultant, and assistant R&D engineer for RS-R, I feel that all-mighty, do-it-all suspension is all smoke and mirrors of marketing by others and is only possible on Alladdin's Magic Carpet.
For the rest of us, we simply cater to a very focused and well-informed audience, with goals that are pin-point and realistic.
This is why we have two very distinct coil-over lineup for the FT86 and other cars. So that each can do the job it was intended very well, and not claim be the magic solution that will cover true track performance, and be a stunning rod-sled.


Now, many of the replies given to you by folks chiming in on this thread are very helpful for you in taking it further and improving things that are inherent issued OTHER than just shocks and springs, to make improvements at your intended ride-height, and I think it's great that there are smaller firms who car intent on making low-volume parts and tools to make changes that are more drastic, and truly useful in making your car more customized and individualistic.

I think the more you develop this car, you will understand more that the RS-R Black-i is an excellent coil-over system that will simply keep up and cater to your needs, as you delve more and more into getting things more dialed in with items that overcome inherent issues of arms, frame, body and alignment at extreme drop levels.

The more inherent chassis/body issues outside of the Black-i systems you choose to fabricate and modify for proper dynamics at this drop level, the more handling you will gain back...
And the more the Black-i will put a smile on your face, but until then, there are limits to going low...and sacrifices, and one should always be aware of this.

[diss7]

I'd like to recant my original negative review on these coilovers.

After speaking with my mechanic about removing them and sourcing a 4th set of suspension, he instead insisted that I at least go see his buddy who owns a suspension place and try and diagnose the problem.

Long story short, after explaining what I want, a consensus was reached that I had the suspension set too low and too firm. They raised the car up marginally, did an alignment, and changed the damper settings from where I had them. They also increased the front roll setting I had on the front sway bar.

We then took the car for a drive around the hills around Christchurch. They are tight and twisty, and will punish an overly lowered car.

The car for the first time felt better than stock. Much better. Didn't bottom out, just felt much nicer.

They gave me a bit of a lecture on how good suspension setup poorly will always be bad.

TL;DR I love my RSR Black's.

Pics of ride height. It might not be suck for tuck, but I'm happy with how it looks, considering that it now drives over9000 times better.

[diss7]

Also, I know this forum frowns upon street racing.

But around these roads, I'm easily keeping up with a buddys 300hp sti. You just can't use a lot of power up ther. He's using never on full throttle, yet I am. And there isnt many points where I need more power than I have.
He can drive, but he just can't take the corners like I can. I'd watch as his car was bottom out on something and sparks would fly, and mine wouldn't bottom out.

It's not really street racing anyway. As its a near abandoned road along the summit of a chain of hills. And the speed limit is 100km/h, which you can barely get to in any section.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Yup, you were way too low before. Car looks better now too, but that's just me (function = hot for this guy).

Proper set-up is worth a LOT...even a nice/expensive coilover isn't going to do much good for handling if it's not adjusted properly.

- Andy

[hfcman]

@diss7

Happy that the Blacki worked out for you, do you mind sharing the setup you are on?

Thanks!

[peteralfonso]

Originally Posted by wallace03

You have the setup i want, except i want 9.5 upfront for the concavity. I wonder if these coilovers will work with that setup, since i remember reading some where that you need more than 1 degree camber upfront so it won't rub with 9.5" 57extremes. I think you're even running the 04-07 brembos that i want lol.

I can see you needing a bit more camber up front even when running a stretched 245 on that size rim. In that case you could just add the camber bolts and you should be fine. I am also running the brembos! I love them, car stops on a dime!

Originally Posted by lp87

Looks great. How does it handle at that height? Wheel specs?

Although I am lowered alot I still have plenty of adjustment left on the coilovers so it still handles great compared to my last two setups. I will be raising the car a bit come May when I go back to the Tail Of The Dragon with the crew. Wheel specs are 19"x8.5" +33 (front) and 19"x9.5" +43 (rear) Rays 57Xtremes.

Originally Posted by hanabie

So the front coils could get up to -1.5 deg? Adding camber bolts will get me more neg camber? Im worried because Im running 9.5" front.

Correct, the front coils will give you up to -1.5 deg and the camber bolts will give you more if need be.

Originally Posted by diss7

I really appreciate these types of reviews. It's human nature to rave about something you have, but most of have not tried anything else. When someone has tried several setups in their own car, it's speaks much more loudly when they say their latest setup is good / bad / etc.

Thanks! Glad you found my review to be helpful

Originally Posted by SmsAlSuwaidi

i really don't see the point of "Lowering" oriented coilovers that lack top hats for some proper front camber

Since most lowering coilovers use pillowball mounts the result is a harsh ride, I believe RSR avoided that to be one of the only options for being this low and maintaining ride comfort by instead using a bushing mount.

Originally Posted by jumbaco

awesome write up! Those look to be some really high quality pieces.

Thanks! They really are gorgeous and I am still extremely happy with my purchase.

Originally Posted by diss7

At this height, are you able to align the rear toe to zero? Or are aftermarket toearms required?

This is a bit too low to get it to zero with the OEM adjustment. I will be buying LCAs and some toe arms to install in the coming weeks.

Originally Posted by FLIPs_FR-S

@peteralfonso awesome review!! I believe I'm gonna get these or the sporti. Leaning more toward the sporti I think though. I really doubt I'll ever wanna go lower than 2"

Thank you! Did you ever make the purchase?

[Nsot]

Originally Posted by diss7

Adjust the camber top was a 2minute job. I took a pic which shows one done, and one about to be done, it's 4 quick bolts.

Thank you for the review, your car looks awesome! I'm glad everything worked out once you got a proper tune and alignment.

One thing I can't seem to grasp is how to change the front camber on these. The manual says you need to completely remove the strut to do it and rotate the bearing plate 180 degrees. I emailed RSR and they say "If your coilovers are installed already, to adjust the front camber to -1.5, you have to undo the counter-sunk bolts and rotate the the coilover assembly 180° in the plate." I guess I'm just a bit confused, could this really be done while already installed?

Thanks

[Beat-Sonic]

Originally Posted by Nsot

Thank you for the review, your car looks awesome! I'm glad everything worked out once you got a proper tune and alignment.

One thing I can't seem to grasp is how to change the front camber on these. The manual says you need to completely remove the strut to do it and rotate the bearing plate 180 degrees. I emailed RSR and they say "If your coilovers are installed already, to adjust the front camber to -1.5, you have to undo the counter-sunk bolts and rotate the the coilover assembly 180° in the plate." I guess I'm just a bit confused, could this really be done while already installed?

Thanks

From my experience with the Black*i coilovers, you do need to completely remove the coilover to change the camber on it. After removal, unbolt the top bolts, then rotate the top plate 180 degrees and bolt the top bolts back on. We had this done on our Beat-Sonic FR-S:

[Liquid6]

Originally Posted by Beat-Sonic

From my experience with the Black*i coilovers, you do need to completely remove the coilover to change the camber on it. After removal, unbolt the top bolts, then rotate the top plate 180 degrees and bolt the top bolts back on. We had this done on our Beat-Sonic FR-S:

nice ride @beatsonic! could you give your specs on camber/drop and are you in anyway rubbing. I have vossen also and I like the way your car sits.

[skyloran]

lol..looks decent.

[Beat-Sonic]

Originally Posted by Liquid6

nice ride @beatsonic! could you give your specs on camber/drop and are you in anyway rubbing. I have vossen also and I like the way your car sits.

Thank you!

I didn't have a chance to measure the camber, but I have the upper mount flipped for the extra 1.5 degrees. The car is dropped around 60mm front and rear. The front of the car currently rubs when I hit a big dip on the freeway. I am planning on raising it 5mm for more drive-ability.

Here's another photo that I took recently: