Official Formula 1 thread

[R.S-HawK]

More interested in IndyCar than F1 to be honest. Feels like the series is just regressing further and further each year.

[torqdork]

Not disagreeing with your premise, but as always the question is "at what cost and weight penalty?"

Instead of alternatively fueled engines, I'm more interested in what manufacturers are doing with drivetrain improvements. Exhibit A is the upcoming sensational Corvette Z06 that will have a lightweight, full auto 8-speed that shifts more quickly than a DCT and will achieve an estimated 30 mpg highway. Impressive for a car with it's capabilities and price point.

http://articles.sae.org/12782/

Originally Posted by cfusionpm

Imagine what it will do for midrange sports cars. Yeah, Toyota have lots of hybrid experience, but all of their hybrids are painfully dull. McLaren and Porsche have already translated modern hybrid technology to road cars in the P1 and 918, but I'll be even more excited when it trickles down to the 20-30k range.

Picking up a beefy grunt car like a Mustang or Camaro means gas mileage in the teens. What if they could be supplemented with an ERS system that was driven off the engine or brakes. Something to both boost power and increase gas mileage.

Now look at your average Japanese sport car, either a torqueless wonder like us, or a 16mpg turbo. Well, use the turbo to drive an electric generator which can deliver performance on demand and economy when you want it and I'm sold.

The CR-Z from Honda was a step in the right direction, but still pretty slow. Give a combined output around 300-350hp with fuel economy above 50mpg and now we're talking.

[rice_classic]

I like the idea of a Salary Cap. But it cannot be like MLB, it needs to be like NFL.

MLB salary cap is a ruse where big market teams can exceed it and just pay a "tax". The NFL is a hard cap with both a max and minimum. (133 million in 2014).

As F1 is not a stick/ball sport I'd say they should have 2 salary caps. Development and Operational/Testing.

I don't know how they would implement or what positive/negative effect it would have on the overall sport but I think everyone up and down pit lane agree it's too damn expensive.

[cfusionpm]

Originally Posted by torqdork

Not disagreeing with your premise, but as always the question is "at what cost and weight penalty?"

Instead of alternatively fueled engines, I'm more interested in what manufacturers are doing with drivetrain improvements. Exhibit A is the upcoming sensational Corvette Z06 that will have a lightweight, full auto 8-speed that shifts more quickly than a DCT and will achieve an estimated 30 mpg highway. Impressive for a car with it's capabilities and price point.

http://articles.sae.org/12782/

30mpg highway is nothing. They run a tall top gear and cruise at 1100 rpm on the freeway. Flog it out even the slightest bit and you'll see single digit values. It's only really "30mpg" on certain specific occasions, and at all other times, it's in the low teens. And even then, it could be getting 40, 50, or more if it had ~200hp coming from an electric motor. That could be used around town (like a prius) and charge as necessary from the gas engine. Or it could be used as a sports model like the P1 or 918, offering different blending modes of "torque fill," all electric, hybrid throttle position, or full sport mode combined. Two road car companies have already shown it can be done, all we need to do is scale it back to the "normal" cars.

[strat61caster]

I see no problem with the engines (other than reliability) and I dread the day they dial them in and we stop seeing them slide around like the 80's or when TCS was disabled in '07.

I like the aero packaging this year aside from the gonzo noses.

Glad to see Bottas deliver on the hype surrounding his arrival.

All in all, standard race at Australia.

[torqdork]

I dunno, it's pretty close to what our much lighter cars with one-third the power produce:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.d...rue&details=on

And latest EPA testing methods produce numbers closer to real world than in the recent past:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/34292.shtml

Then again I'm the last owner to ask about mpg's. I only averaged low-mid 20's of the 14 Prius I've owned since 2004 mainly due to short hauls in low temps and steep elevation changes, but mostly due to the typical penalty experienced during low temp operation where the ICE runs 100% to produce cabin heat.

The conventionally powered Camrys in the fleet consistently exceeded Prius mpg's in those conditions. I stopped running Prius when the tax incentives expired. The smaller cargo volume, annoying CVT, poor mpg in low temps and initial cost couldn't compare to a better in most ways Camry.

Maybe down the road we'll see practical sports car applications of hybrid tech, but for now even F1 cars aren't producing 200 hp from their electric motors. It's a fantasy but makes halo cars like the 918 strengthen a brand and sell wall posters.

Originally Posted by cfusionpm

30mpg highway is nothing. They run a tall top gear and cruise at 1100 rpm on the freeway. Flog it out even the slightest bit and you'll see single digit values. It's only really "30mpg" on certain specific occasions, and at all other times, it's in the low teens. And even then, it could be getting 40, 50, or more if it had ~200hp coming from an electric motor. That could be used around town (like a prius) and charge as necessary from the gas engine. Or it could be used as a sports model like the P1 or 918, offering different blending modes of "torque fill," all electric, hybrid throttle position, or full sport mode combined. Two road car companies have already shown it can be done, all we need to do is scale it back to the "normal" cars.

[Calais]

i went down for the race i cheered when vettel was knocked out felt so good, sux for daniel though seems like red bull always find a way to screw the aussie.

the sound was nice the two best sounding teams were ferrari and force india i especially liked how ferrari deliberately made the blow off valve audible, the only thing is they were much too quiet, the word tamed comes to mind a word that should never come up when describing an F1 car, and that's what i think they have to correct they've tamed what is supposed to be the pinnacle of motor racing the V8's could be heard while you were on the way to the track and when at the track the atmosphere was amazing the moment you heard the cars EVERYONE ran to get as close to the track as possible, i didn't experience this feeling this year the cars were not audible from my seats on the straight when they were started and could not be heard on the back straight when both the V8 supercars and porsche cup cars could be heard.

i get all this eco friendlyness all this making the 1% of the people who actually watch these races happy but that 99% of us that go to and F1 race expect to hear THAT sound, THAT sound which around the world cannot be mis-understood for anything else but a Formula One car, in interviews in the past two years Bernie said that the sound was the most important thing and if that was lost then he'd have to step in and do something WELL BERNIE DO SOMETHING BECAUSE F1 HAS BEEN TAMED it is a shadow of its former self, make the engines sound louder get THAT SOUND back otherwise you will loose more fans that you stand to make!!!

end rant/

[cfusionpm]

Just another perspective: [ame]http://youtu.be/FFwoxM1MiBw?t=7m18s[/ame]

It won't let me link to a time, but at 7m 18s, they talk about the noise

[rice_classic]

If F1 doesn't adapt and become "relevant" to the manufacturers, eventually you won't have any. You think the fans are pissed now, imagine an era when only 6 cars are on the grid because everyone else left because it wasn't worth it. F1 has to remain relevant to the folks who actually spend the money to put on the show!

Let's face it, these OEM's are not spending $200-500+ million to make "pretty noises". F1 needs the OEMs. For the last several years the OEM's have been running off to the LeMans and WEC because it's much more relevant to their interests. Nissan, Audi, Toyota, Acura/Honda, Porsche etc.

IMHO, if the WEC cars (World Endurance Championship) had a sprint-race series (by sprint race I mean races under 2 hours like F1) I would be more interested in that than F1. The big problem I have as a fan of WEC/LeMans is that endurance racing is really boring as a fan because rarely the racing is close and even when it is, it doesn't matter because there's still 12 hours to go! Almost never, is the racing close when it counts. When it is, it's very special but that's so rare it doesn't glue me to the TV for each event. I think the duration of the event is a big hurdle for future fan growth in that sport.

My dream series would be WEC cars open the season with 12 hour enduro, run a season of 15-20 sprint races between 1.5-2 hours each with a 6 hour race mid season and end the season at LeMans for the 24 hour. Now that would be awesome! This would do things: Exciting events for fans with close battles to the finish line and long duration events for testing for OEM's and development.

Everyone wins!

[cfusionpm]

The only real reason I got into F1 is because Le Mans/WEC gets no coverage in the states outside of the 24 hours of le mans. And the few other races that do happen are few and far between, with little action over the duration of the race. Audi and Le Mans were actually the first team and motorsport I followed, and it was painful to wait a whole year for the next race I could see.

F1 happens about every two weeks for the majority of the year. There's tons of team and driver drama, and something is always in the news. Aside from racing (which is still more exciting than most sections of Le Mans, even at F1's worst), it offers lots of extra content to enjoy year round.

That said, a combination series WEC with bunches of GP style sprint races would be absolutely fantastic. I would love to see Audi battle Toyota and Porsche across the world every other week.

[torqdork]

Motorsports coverage on cable has improved in the last couple of seasons.

Now it seems like something is going on most weekends, not counting NASCAR. Most months will have 1-2 races from different series including F1, IndyCar, United Sports Cars, Pirelli World Challenge, Continental Challenge, V8 Supercars, World Rally plus European Touring Car and DTM series for starters.

Include MotoGP, Superbike, F1 powerboats and Red Bull Air Races and I have to stay on top of flushing the DVR to make room for new stuff.

It's a great time for armchair motorsports fans!

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by torqdork

I dunno, it's pretty close to what our much lighter cars with one-third the power produce:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.d...rue&details=on

And latest EPA testing methods produce numbers closer to real world than in the recent past:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/34292.shtml

Maybe down the road we'll see practical sports car applications of hybrid tech, but for now even F1 cars aren't producing 200 hp from their electric motors. It's a fantasy but makes halo cars like the 918 strengthen a brand and sell wall posters.

If you're going to look at EPA testing methods, then you should be fair. 30mpg cruising on the highway and 30mpg average is very different. The Corvette is rated lower than 30mpg on the EPA cycle, and around town the gas mileage is absolutely horrendous. The EPA test is biased for city driving but even then you can't hide the 6+ liter engine which consumes more fuel at a fast idle than a typical car uses while travelling down the freeway.

The electric motor power is a function of regulation not technology. You can make an electric motor that pumps out 4hp/lb without even trying (if you try to compute the power density of a gasoline engine + transmission, hint, it's much lower than that even with crazy boost). If they wanted to, they could put larger capacitor banks and get twice the power with a slightly bigger motor.

That's the main issue really, the energy storage medium, and actually getting it done. I think it's ultimately a good thing that F1 is making this happen (only Audi, Toyota, and Porsche had hybrids running races before this I think), because car manufacturers need to get experience integrating what is in concept very simple into actual cars that drive around and need to be reliable, and they are getting experience by having to tune these systems. Hopefully it means that in a few years at least all cars will have a high voltage bus with minor assist/regen capability built into either a belted motor-generator or integrated into the block (even better, weight savings by getting rid of the pulleys). It shouldn't cost very much money to do, swap the alternator with a slightly more expensive motor + power electronics and a small battery pack, ~1000 dollars should be doable, and you'll get a meaningful hp boost on lower powered cars plus a very good torque boost, which will allow less compromised cam profiles for manufacturers that are too cheap to implement variable lift, which gives you even more efficiency. There are a ton of synergies that you get from upgrading the electrical system to a mild hybrid system that manufacturers and consumers have been reluctant to adopt but this hopefully will change.

[torqdork]

...

[torqdork]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

If you're going to look at EPA testing methods, then you should be fair. 30mpg cruising on the highway and 30mpg average is very different. The Corvette is rated lower than 30mpg on the EPA cycle, and around town the gas mileage is absolutely horrendous. The EPA test is biased for city driving but even then you can't hide the 6+ liter engine which consumes more fuel at a fast idle than a typical car uses while travelling down the freeway.

I referenced highway ratings as a starting point and was "fair", providing .gov data. As you can see, both the Corvette and FR-S M/T's are within 1 mpg highway.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....n=sbs&id=33907

Realistically, I get closer to the city rating during my DD's in the foothills here, about 21-22 mpg, spot on the EPA city rating. That also compares favorably with Corvette's city rating of 17 mpg and both require premium fuel. I wouldn't call that horrendous for the performance, I'll save that term for my 10-11 mpg 4,400lb. FJ Cruiser M/T over the same roads and for track days where those of us data logging in twins see 8-10 mpg.

The electric motor power is a function of regulation not technology. You can make an electric motor that pumps out 4hp/lb without even trying (if you try to compute the power density of a gasoline engine + transmission, hint, it's much lower than that even with crazy boost). If they wanted to, they could put larger capacitor banks and get twice the power with a slightly bigger motor.

The first Prius was sold in 1997, worldwide in 2000 when there were no mandates for hybrids. Rich taxpayer incentives, yes. But I question your 4hp/lb estimate in cars, maybe in model aircraft. Even the new BMW i3 is a fraction of that (2.5kW/kg) at a little over 1hp/lb. and the LEAF is about half that.

That's the main issue really, the energy storage medium, and actually getting it done. I think it's ultimately a good thing that F1 is making this happen (only Audi, Toyota, and Porsche had hybrids running races before this I think), because car manufacturers need to get experience integrating what is in concept very simple into actual cars that drive around and need to be reliable, and they are getting experience by having to tune these systems. Hopefully it means that in a few years at least all cars will have a high voltage bus with minor assist/regen capability built into either a belted motor-generator or integrated into the block (even better, weight savings by getting rid of the pulleys). It shouldn't cost very much money to do, swap the alternator with a slightly more expensive motor + power electronics and a small battery pack, ~1000 dollars should be doable, and you'll get a meaningful hp boost on lower powered cars plus a very good torque boost, which will allow less compromised cam profiles for manufacturers that are too cheap to implement variable lift, which gives you even more efficiency. There are a ton of synergies that you get from upgrading the electrical system to a mild hybrid system that manufacturers and consumers have been reluctant to adopt but this hopefully will change.

Toyota has refined the modular hybrid drivetrain to work with a variety of primary power sources. For storage, they still can't get LiOn's to work reliably without excess heat even with Tesla input (see Tesla fires) and the capacitive systems don't appear ready for mass market production yet. They've produced Atkinson cycle ICE's with variable lift and timing for years. They've sold over 6 million hybrids worldwide.

http://www.toyota.com/about/news/cor...Worldwide.html

Although demand has leveled lately (the Mississippi Prius plant was mothballed) and the market is currently saturated, demand is expected to increase but not as a function of performance or fuel economy, but to meet new CO² mandates. I wouldn't expect Toyota to be in a hurry to add another $1,000 (your estimate) to marginally improve economy when there are few or no more tax incentives except for electrics and even with them and a huge price cut last year, Plug-In Prius sales are in the tank.

It's easy for anyone to say what should and shouldn't be done to satisfy their agendas, not so much when considering worldwide geopolitics, economics, regulation and free market demand. Now that for some reason F1 believes it has to follow political whims, the natural extension would be fully electric F1. That's why I think the current direction of F1 is misguided.