All about replicas: Corner-Cutting Commentary

[johnnie]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Well you could always save a few more bucks/pounds/euros and buy the Rota replicas they were bitching about last fall.

Heh...

Or I could just ignore unrequested advice and snobism and do whatever I want. I don't really have a need for approval.

[rice_classic]

A fool puts himself above others with false pretenses, the bigger fool seeks acceptance from such fools.

Originally Posted by Superhatch

Seriously, how far do you want to take this? The real vs. fake argument is a joke because people get SO FUCKING HUNG UP about wheels for their $10,000 car. Get a life and realize that to someone almost everything you own is a knock-off you 1/2 rate, broke ass, copycat.

THIS!

Anybody own a decent set of sunglasses or eyeglasses? Think you got something "original"? I doubt it.. it's called illusion of choice. Look at the Luxxotica business model. The wheel industry isn't exactly a replica of the Luxxotica business model but buying wheels with a 1200% markup because of the name brand isn't any different then paying $240 for a pair of Oakleys, or $75 for a T-Shirt from a trendy store in the mall.

Also to counter the "Intellectual Property" argument. Most of the people who try to use that BS argument are probably downloading something on Torrent right now. What a load of BS. But this isn't IP, it's physical goods and the IP of physical goods is a patent. Typical Patent-Term is 20 years in EU and USA. Even when something's patented, there is a limit to the duration of the patent and in our "free market" it's perfectly acceptable to make a competitive copy when the patent has expired! Just ask the consumer about Generic Pharmaceuticals. When that patent expires, all of a sudden my grandpa can get his medication for 1/10th of the cost, how is that a bad thing?! Secondly, if a patent is being infringed, the company that owns it has the fiduciary responsibility to protect it. If they don't that's their business. If goods weren't copied and reproduced at a lower cost by a competitor then most of the things in our lives would be vastly more expensive. That includes about 90% of the stuff in your house, right now.

A valid argument that is almost never considered is that a consumer has a right to illustrate their feeling about a producer by how they spend their money. Maybe I'm buying a knock-off because I don't like how the original producer conducts business.

The brand-name-elitist-assholes that care about what wheels are on my car are usually the same assholes that care what brand name is on my pants, or my phone, or my shoes. Guess what, the adults in the grown-up world, don't give two shits about any of that.

Thinking that the "cool kid" concept still exists in adulthood is stupid, trying to be part of the "cool kids" by faking it is even more pathetic.

As the saying goes: "A fool and his money are soon parted". I'd rather spend the money I saved not getting ripped off by brand name stuff by spending MORE time at the race track, donating more money to my retirement or heck.. buying stock in the companies that sell name brand stuff to fools with lots of money.

So please, in the big picture, keep in mind that if you care about what wheels are on my car, it's not me that's the asshole.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

A fool puts himself above others with false pretenses, the bigger fool seeks acceptance from such fools.



THIS!

Anybody own a decent set of sunglasses or eyeglasses? Think you got something "original"? I doubt it.. it's called illusion of choice. Look at the Luxxotica business model. The wheel industry isn't exactly a replica of the Luxxotica business model but buying wheels with a 1200% markup because of the name brand isn't any different then paying $240 for a pair of Oakleys, or $75 for a T-Shirt from a trendy store in the mall.

Also to counter the "Intellectual Property" argument. Most of the people who try to use that BS argument are probably downloading something on Torrent right now. What a load of BS. But this isn't IP, it's physical goods and the IP of physical goods is a patent. Typical Patent-Term is 20 years in EU and USA. Even when something's patented, there is a limit to the duration of the patent and in our "free market" it's perfectly acceptable to make a competitive copy when the patent has expired! Just ask the consumer about Generic Pharmaceuticals. When that patent expires, all of a sudden my grandpa can get his medication for 1/10th of the cost, how is that a bad thing?! Secondly, if a patent is being infringed, the company that owns it has the fiduciary responsibility to protect it. If they don't that's their business. If goods weren't copied and reproduced at a lower cost by a competitor then most of the things in our lives would be vastly more expensive. That includes about 90% of the stuff in your house, right now.

A valid argument that is almost never considered is that a consumer has a right to illustrate their feeling about a producer by how they spend their money. Maybe I'm buying a knock-off because I don't like how the original producer conducts business.

The brand-name-elitist-assholes that care about what wheels are on my car are usually the same assholes that care what brand name is on my pants, or my phone, or my shoes. Guess what, the adults in the grown-up world, don't give two shits about any of that.

Thinking that the "cool kid" concept still exists in adulthood is stupid, trying to be part of the "cool kids" by faking it is even more pathetic.

As the saying goes: "A fool and his money are soon parted". I'd rather spend the money I saved not getting ripped off by brand name stuff by spending MORE time at the race track, donating more money to my retirement or heck.. buying stock in the companies that sell name brand stuff to fools with lots of money.

So please, in the big picture, keep in mind that if you care about what wheels are on my car, it's not me that's the asshole.

Nobody would buy knockoffs and Rota would be out of business if brand snobbery were a one sided affair.

The Luxotica analogy is weak because there is no technical separation to 'justify' the price differences within brands. It is basically a monopoly supported price model.

Generic drugs are 100% technically identical and have the waiting period.

The high school mentality absolutely exists in the adult world. Denying it would have me think you live in a bubble. Just because you don't think you judge on these things doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Everywhere. Everyone judges. I've been treated very differently depending on what I'm wearing in numerous situations. I also know and anticipate this and present myself according to what the situation demands.

People just get pissy when their choices don't make the 'acceptable' cut and feel compelled to justify their decision on the opposite side of the price spectrum. 'They have a better dealer network.' 'The others are a rip off.' 'Snobs have expensive wheels.' Whatever. It's the other side and contributes to it just as equally.

It's tribalism. Human nature. Sports teams and car make loyalties are the same. Arbitrary affections beyond logic. This one just ends up having hints of class warfare or whatever due to the money aspect.

The bottom line is that Rays/Volk etc... wheels are superior to knock offs like Rota. But a lot of people can't afford them. But they end up with the style of the superior wheels by coincidence? With out the direct style imitation that Rota aggressively pursues they would be as anonymous as ASA. So the non-elitists are just as image conscious as the snobs.






And never the twain shall meet...

[n2oinferno]

Originally Posted by Dimman

As I've mentioned before there are companies like ASA that use properly licensed technology, original design, quality manufacture and are inexpensive that nobody bothers to create zillions of internet threads about. And most of the Rota threads are for pics looking for approval of their car's style.

Whoa, whoa. Methinks you don't know the hole you're digging.

ASA AR1

BBS RS-GT


ASA Type 8

Mercedes OEM 8 hole


ASA GT5


BBS CHR


and on, and on..

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

Whoa, whoa. Methinks you don't know the hole you're digging.

ASA AR1

BBS RS-GT


ASA Type 8

Mercedes OEM 8 hole


ASA GT5


BBS CHR


and on, and on..

Official licenses. BBS partnered with them. Try again.

[rice_classic]

Licensed or not. Are they, or aren't they identical copies for less money?

As for Rotas, like I said the other companies have a fiduciary responsibility to patent their designs and protect patents. If the design Rota is copying isn't part of an international patent AND/OR the originator is choosing NOT to pursue them then what's the issue?

There is no issue, other than the one people want to create for themselves.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Licensed or not. Are they, or aren't they identical copies for less money?

As for Rotas, like I said the other companies have a fiduciary responsibility to patent their designs and protect patents. If the design Rota is copying isn't part of an international patent AND/OR the originator is choosing NOT to pursue them then what's the issue?

There is no issue, other than the one people want to create for themselves.

BBS makes money on them.

As for the design patent, yes. In a sense. But it is a matter of weighing cost to reward. Not every company has Apple, Rolex or LVMH's deep litigation pockets.

If litigation is successful but loses money it isn't good business sense. International law complicates things further. PAWI (Rota)is basically a company that owes its existence to government protectionism. Lawsuit success in the Philippines wouldn't amount to much. And going after dealers would be expensive whack-a-mole. Plus, as Apple found out, design patents are much more grey than copyright cases.

So they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Add to the fact that Japanese companies loathe litigation and Rota ends up with free reign, to support cheap wannabes*.

American companies dealing with similar cases in America tend to be more successful. Calaway (sp?) managed to get a bunch of knock-off golf clubs declared as counterfeit by customs without design patents, so it's also where you're from and who you know.






Another option is internet fake wheel forum public opinion gladiator matches, which they seem to favour.

Heh...




*pure trolling.

[n2oinferno]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Official licenses. BBS partnered with them. Try again.

Vossen maybe? Or did Vossen get this from someone else?

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

Vossen maybe? Or did Vossen get this from someone else?

Vossen is a 4 year old wheel importing business who doesn't make their own product. They import private label designs. ie picked from a catalog with minor customization. ASA is a manufacturer that's been around for a long time that makes not only the wheels, but the dies too. Eho has the higher investment cost? So who is likely to have led whom?

[m.box.design]

Most of stance nation is built around XXR, Varrestoen, and Rota wheels. It allows the average joe to join in. I don't condone copying, but if these cheaper copy cat wheels allows the guy who drives a 91 civic to add a jdm-esque set of wheels to his car, then let it be. These knockoffs are here to stay, they've already flooded beyond the levies.

[n2oinferno]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Vossen is a 4 year old wheel importing business who doesn't make their own product. They import private label designs. ie picked from a catalog with minor customization. ASA is a manufacturer that's been around for a long time that makes not only the wheels, but the dies too. Eho has the higher investment cost? So who is likely to have led whom?

So now it's a pissing contest of "Well, X company has a higher investment cost than Y company, so they deserve more money and sales even though they were later to the market with this design!"? Isn't it still a matter of a design that people liked so other brands are slapping their name on it and selling it as thier own wheel? I thought this was the whole issue people took with less expensive options existing that look like the more expensive ones?

It seems to me that some of the "cheap" brands offer bolt patterns and sizes that the more expensive manufacturers are slow to market at first. Unless someone wants to pay for a custom one-off set, that is. And hey, if they have the cash to drop on wheels and want to do so, more power to 'em! It's all about having a product to offer that the customer wants to buy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend either side here. Just trying to understand why it's okay for one of the "better" brands to create a wheel that looks exactly the same as other brands out there, but when someone comes along and does it for a far more accessible price then obviously it's terrible crap and they're a bad company and you should feel bad for using them. Personally I wouldn't spend probably any more than 1500 bucks on wheels, but that still gives a ton of awesome options to me. Just HRE, Volk, Advan, etc won't be in my future. I can be happy with Gram Lights or Enkei.

[n2oinferno]

Originally Posted by Dimman

American companies dealing with similar cases in America tend to be more successful. Calaway (sp?) managed to get a bunch of knock-off golf clubs declared as counterfeit by customs without design patents, so it's also where you're from and who you know.

I missed this earlier. Wasn't this lawsuit based on the fact that these were counterfeit and not knock-off products? And no, those aren't interchangeable, so apples to oranges. Counterfeit defrauds the customer into thinking they were buying the real thing. This harms the original company far more since now their brand is being tarnished when the products don't hold up to their standards. This is exactly why Rota was involved in a lawsuit not too long ago because people were counterfeiting their wheels.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

So now it's a pissing contest of "Well, X company has a higher investment cost than Y company, so they deserve more money and sales even though they were later to the market with this design!"? Isn't it still a matter of a design that people liked so other brands are slapping their name on it and selling it as thier own wheel? I thought this was the whole issue people took with less expensive options existing that look like the more expensive ones?

It seems to me that some of the "cheap" brands offer bolt patterns and sizes that the more expensive manufacturers are slow to market at first. Unless someone wants to pay for a custom one-off set, that is. And hey, if they have the cash to drop on wheels and want to do so, more power to 'em! It's all about having a product to offer that the customer wants to buy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend either side here. Just trying to understand why it's okay for one of the "better" brands to create a wheel that looks exactly the same as other brands out there, but when someone comes along and does it for a far more accessible price then obviously it's terrible crap and they're a bad company and you should feel bad for using them. Personally I wouldn't spend probably any more than 1500 bucks on wheels, but that still gives a ton of awesome options to me. Just HRE, Volk, Advan, etc won't be in my future. I can be happy with Gram Lights or Enkei.

It's just a counter assumption-based argument. ASA could be the company Vossen got to make the wheels for all either of us know.

How this type of private label stuff works is there is IP sharing/transfer/license stuff that the production factory usually gets. The primary example in this is store-brand food stuff.

But what often pops up as 'proof' that top level Japanese makers knock off is a BBS style forged wheel by some company. But deeper investigation shows that BBS gets their forged wheels made in Japan by a manufacturing company that has one of these agreements.

But PAWI isn't making wheels for these other companies.

I just pick ASA as an example of a 'meh' but affordable company that does things the 'right' way.

It exemplifies how much of Rota's business is knock-off based. And is a good counter argument to people justifying knock offs on cost.

We both agree that there are affordable non knock off alternatives.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

I missed this earlier. Wasn't this lawsuit based on the fact that these were counterfeit and not knock-off products? And no, those aren't interchangeable, so apples to oranges. Counterfeit defrauds the customer into thinking they were buying the real thing. This harms the original company far more since now their brand is being tarnished when the products don't hold up to their standards. This is exactly why Rota was involved in a lawsuit not too long ago because people were counterfeiting their wheels.

It was ground breaking because they got a knock off club to be declared a counterfeit. There was no logo infringement.

No idea how much money and work went into that case, though.

Edit: Here's a bit of detail on what happened:

http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...f#.UydEy_rn_4c

I don't know how aggressively Callaway patented their IP or whatnot...