FR-S vs Cayman

[SUB-FT86]

I always say there will be people who don't like every car even though these cars might be highly praised.

[duffman13]

They can be compared if you're talking used prices, but FWIW I'd stay away from any cayman older than an 09. Porsche still has yet to acknowledge the widespread problem of IMS failures grenading their lower-end motors with a recall, and from what I've read it wasn't until 09 that they fixed the issue at the production level.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by Gardus

Both 1 M and Cayman (any model) are superior to the NA 86. Maybe when the turbo will come out we can talk about it.
........

Well, from a certain perspective you are right - if it comes to lap times on a smooth, wide race track both cars are very fast.

However, the Cayman is not that brilliant, if you use it on winding little country roads, where there may always be some good reason to suddenly reduce speed quickly. Then the Cayman will show, that mid-engined cars can be real bastards. Enter a corner somewhat too fast, lift the throttle - and off you go!
Did you know, that you can't switch of the ESC completely in a Cayman? As soon as one of the front wheels reaches the ABS range, the ESC is back. I am sure, Porsche knows, why.....
And I do not trust the engine, Porsche had too many engine issues in the past....

The BMW 1 M is even worse: The suspension is much to hard, so the car simply lacks mechanical traction. This bad traction combines with sudden release of high torque at low revs from the turbo.
Not a problem on a very smooth dry race track. But push the car on a bumpy road or on wet tarmac, and you will need all your driving skills to keep the little bitch on the road.
In addition the Visco-Lok LSD (rev sensing instead of torque-sensing) isn't really a good choice. I would immediately exchange it to a clutch pack LSD.

I personally seriously considered all three of them, the GT86/BRZ, the Cayman S and the 1 M. And I am pretty sure, the GT86/BRZ is the best out of these three as a sports car for real roads, especially for little bumpy country roads.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

Well, from a certain perspective you are right - if it comes to lap times on a smooth, wide race track both cars are very fast.

However, the Cayman is not that brilliant, if you use it on winding little country roads, where there may always be some good reason to suddenly reduce speed quickly. Then the Cayman will show, that mid-engined cars can be real bastards. Enter a corner somewhat too fast, lift the throttle - and off you go!
Did you know, that you can't switch of the ESC completely in a Cayman? As soon as one of the front wheels reaches the ABS range, the ESC is back. I am sure, Porsche knows, why.....
And I do not trust the engine, Porsche had too many engine issues in the past....

The BMW 1 M is even worse: The suspension is much to hard, so the car simply lacks mechanical traction. This bad traction combines with sudden release of high torque at low revs from the turbo.
Not a problem on a very smooth dry race track. But push the car on a bumpy road or on wet tarmac, and you will need all your driving skills to keep the little bitch on the road.
In addition the Visco-Lok LSD (rev sensing instead of torque-sensing) isn't really a good choice. I would immediately exchange it to a clutch pack LSD.

I personally seriously considered all three of them, the GT86/BRZ, the Cayman S and the 1 M. And I am pretty sure, the GT86/BRZ is the best out of these three as a sports car for real roads, especially for little bumpy country roads.

I always knew the cayman couldn't be as perfect as magazines always say and it's good to hear it from a guy who was born(I'm guessing?) in the same country of origin so you see these cars all the time I bet.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

I always knew the cayman couldn't be as perfect as magazines always say and it's good to hear it from a guy who was born(I'm guessing?) in the same country of origin so you see these cars all the time I bet.

youre listening to someone who is speaking beyond his experiences so take that with a grain of salt or two.

[oneday]

Originally Posted by fatoni

youre listening to someone who is speaking beyond his experiences so take that with a grain of salt or two.

The Cayman is one of, if not THE best current production driver's cars on the planet. Hands down.

Lift throttle oversteer? In a car with a good portion of its weight out back? You don't say!

Driving a mid/rear-engine car fast has a learning curve...but once you understand the physics behind it, they are magical (especially in the wet).

The semi-non-defeatable driver aids are funny too...Porsche calls it PSM, and they only come back on after you've demonstrated to the ECU that you are unfit to be driving without them.

Originally Posted by Porsche.com

PSM, which comes as standard, is an automatic control system that stabilises the vehicle at the limits of dynamic driving performance. Sensors continuously monitor driving direction, speed, yaw velocity and lateral acceleration. Using this information, PSM computes the actual direction of motion. If this direction deviates from the desired course, PSM initiates braking interventions targeted at individual wheels in order to stabilise the vehicle.

Under acceleration on wet or low-grip road surfaces, PSM improves traction using the ABD (automatic brake differential) and ASR (anti-slip regulation) functions, giving an agile response. When ‘Sport’ mode is selected on the optional Sport Chrono Packages, the PSM intervention threshold is raised to enable greater driver involvement – particularly at speeds of up to approximately 70 km/h (45 mph). The integrated ABS can further reduce the braking distance. For an even sportier drive, PSM can be deactivated. However, it is automatically reactivated for your safety if either of the front wheels (in ‘Sport’ mode, both of the front wheels) requires ABS assistance. ABD remains permanently active. PSM has been enhanced and now includes two additional functions: precharging of the brake system, and brake assist. If you suddenly release the accelerator pedal, PSM automatically readies the braking system. With the braking system having been precharged, the brake pads are already in light contact with the brake discs. Maximum braking power is therefore achieved much sooner. When sudden braking is detected, the brake assist function applies maximum brake pressure to all four wheels.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by oneday

The Cayman is one of, if not THE best current production driver's cars on the planet. Hands down.

Lift throttle oversteer? In a car with a good portion of its weight out back? You don't say!

Driving a mid/rear-engine car fast has a learning curve...but once you understand the physics behind it, they are magical (especially in the wet).

The semi-non-defeatable driver aids are funny too...Porsche calls it PSM, and they only come back on after you've demonstrated to the ECU that you are unfit to be driving without them.

Well, rear-engine cars and mid-engine cars are not the same in throttle-lift. I wouldn't mind to buy a rear-engine car (I used to drive rear-engine cars for about 15 years, although today I prefer front engine /RWD).
But mid-engine? Not really my thing. Nice as long as you stick to the rule not to lift the throttle throughout the curve. But what, if you simply can't??
(yes, there are many mid-engine cars, that are more difficult to handle under throttle lift than a Cayman, I know.)

Originally Posted by oneday

they only come back on after you've demonstrated to the ECU that you are unfit to be driving without them

But the text about the Porsche systems tells me something different:
It is enough to just get one wheel into the ABS range. Can happen, if you brake hard, right? Can even happen, if you do NOT brake hard: On bumpy roads. And especially on snow. That's sure nothing, that calls for ESC (PSM)!

And ABD (automatic brake differential), that stays active all the time?
No thanks! I prefer a pure mechanical LSD. Without ABD/brakes playing the nanny.

[oneday]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

it's good to hear it from a guy who was born(I'm guessing?) in the same country of origin so you see these cars all the time I bet.

Meant to point this out earlier, but how does him being from Germany make him an expert on Porsches, BMWs, or any other German built car? That'd be like him assuming a US resident knows more about Chevy's or a Japanese person about Toyotas. I am way more familiar with European and Japanese cars than US built machines, despite being an American.

Originally Posted by ChrisH

But mid-engine? Not really my thing. Nice as long as you stick to the rule not to lift the throttle throughout the curve. But what, if you simply can't??
(yes, there are many mid-engine cars, that are more difficult to handle under throttle lift than a Cayman, I know.)

If you can't handle that you should leave the PSM on.

Originally Posted by ChrisH

But the text about the Porsche systems tells me something different:
It is enough to just get one wheel into the ABS range. Can happen, if you brake hard, right? Can even happen, if you do NOT brake hard: On bumpy roads. And especially on snow. That's sure nothing, that calls for ESC (PSM)!

Why would you disable the PSM in snowy conditions--not many people are going to try and hoon thei street driven P-car in the snow.

I'd be interested to see how many people actually complain about PSM infringing on their ability to flog their Cayman...my guess it's not many....and my assumption (yeah, I said it), is that anyone that "complains" probably just got their ass saved by the nanny.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by oneday

Meant to point this out earlier, but how does him being from Germany make him an expert on Porsches, BMWs, or any other German built car? That'd be like him assuming a US resident knows more about Chevy's or a Japanese person about Toyotas. I am way more familiar with European and Japanese cars than US built machines, despite being an American.



If you can't handle that you should leave the PSM on.



Why would you disable the PSM in snowy conditions--not many people are going to try and hoon thei street driven P-car in the snow.

I'd be interested to see how many people actually complain about PSM infringing on their ability to flog their Cayman...my guess it's not many....and my assumption (yeah, I said it), is that anyone that "complains" probably just got their ass saved by the nanny.

Probably this is exactly the point. I complain, that the PSM of a Cayman can not be fully switched off - but wouldn't bet, that a Cayman needs no nanny in the snow or under some difficult driving conditions.

I can say: The "nanny" never saved my ass, just because my BMW simply does not have ESC.
It has a traction control, but I switch it off as soon as I start to push the car - no matter if on dry or wet tarmac or on snow.
It has a clutch pack LSD, which helps further to control the car.
Actually I enjoyed so much drifting in the last week with so much snow here!

So this is exactly the point: Yes, you can switch ESC off, IF the car is easy to drive under difficult conditions, e.g. throttle lift (and if you switch off just the nanny, but not your brain!!).

You know, this is exactly, why I am so keen on the GT86/BRZ, because it is the very same kind of car:
- easy to drive, therefore no nanny needed.
- just a lot of fun

[Turbowned]

After seeing what used Caymans go for and driving a 911 and Boxster, I might seriously have to consider one. I'm very familiar with driving a mid-engine platform after owning 6 MR2's, so I should take to it like a fish in water. The power/weight ratio is better than the BRZ/FR-S, and it should have better brakes, too. I've always wanted a decent P-car, so this is tempting me, especially because we have an '07 Cayman for ~$31k at my Porsche/Audi dealer, and I'll get a break on parts/labor so the cost of ownership should be less.

My biggest concern is now this engine issue which has been brought up. I'll have to discuss it with our Porsche techs and get a couple solid opinions. The other downsides would of course be cost of modifications relative to the BRZ/FR-S, and the lack of options (I want a BRZ Limited with all the toys).

Look for some feedback on here when I go out and test-drive the Cayman sometime next week!

[colganc]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

After seeing what used Caymans go for and driving a 911 and Boxster, I might seriously have to consider one. I'm very familiar with driving a mid-engine platform after owning 6 MR2's, so I should take to it like a fish in water. The power/weight ratio is better than the BRZ/FR-S, and it should have better brakes, too. I've always wanted a decent P-car, so this is tempting me, especially because we have an '07 Cayman for ~$31k at my Porsche/Audi dealer, and I'll get a break on parts/labor so the cost of ownership should be less.

My biggest concern is now this engine issue which has been brought up. I'll have to discuss it with our Porsche techs and get a couple solid opinions. The other downsides would of course be cost of modifications relative to the BRZ/FR-S, and the lack of options (I want a BRZ Limited with all the toys).

Look for some feedback on here when I go out and test-drive the Cayman sometime next week!

My local Porsche dealer has similarly priced Caymans. After the CPO warranty runs out I've expected I'd spend ~$1.5k to ~2k on maintenance/repair for a 07 Cayman. These extra costs are one aspect that has kept me from jumping into a Cayman and instead waiting to see on the 86.

If the 86 is as fun to drive it will be hard to say no to the cheaper price, assuming the 86 turns out to be ~23k.

Becareful when you test drive the Cayman. The engine noise can be intoxicating.

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

-snip-

If you have the money...here's what I'd do: buy a Cayman with a blown engine. Here's why: I'd also buy a 3.8L Carrera S engine to stick in it. Proper engine for the proper car. If only.

Alternatively you could by a blown Boxster S and stick the Subaru EJ255/257 turbo in there.

[Turbowned]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

If you have the money...here's what I'd do: buy a Cayman with a blown engine. Here's why: I'd also buy a 3.8L Carrera S engine to stick in it. Proper engine for the proper car. If only.

Alternatively you could by a blown Boxster S and stick the Subaru EJ255/257 turbo in there.

That works if you have $30k in cash or good enough credit to get a $30k personal loan. As most of us I assume will be financing the cars, it wouldn't be so easy. I would sure love to do that, though!

[colganc]

The BRZ and FR-S aren't too far from a used 2007 Cayman. I'm really looking forward to test driving a BRZ and FR-S. I'm hoping the fun factor is there.

I am getting a bit worried though too. The more I think about the transmission being up front, the more I worry about the weight balance killing the enjoyment.

This wait is killing me.