Drove a PDK today...

[malave7567]

I love my manual, but DCT/DSG is the new wave for performance for many of the reasons already mentioned. Remember, the DCT/DSG IS a manual gearbox... just with a new clutch assembly and electronically controlled. This is what makes it feel so much better than a slushbox-style auto. That said, I do think the FR-S auto is pretty damn good for a slushbox, but there's a definitely advantage to a DCT/DSG.

Those instant shifts are fun... As long as the logic is good, when upshifting, the next gear is already set-up and ready to go once it switches torque from one clutch to the other, no time wasted in moving the shift lever with the clutch disengaged.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Really comes down to performance, efficiency and feel for me. Speaking for the GTI:

Performance
- Much quicker shifts (seamless at WOT)
- No loss of boost between shifts
- Integrated launch control
- Result: DSG is ~0.5 seconds faster 0-60 than manual (5.8 s vs. 6.3)

Efficiency
- No power wasted on a torque converter
- Result: DSG gets 24/32 vs 21/31 for manual

Feel
- Quick downshifts when DSG expects them
- Locomotive-like acceleration
- Paddles that respond instantly
- Result: Car feels smooth and responsive

Interestingly, my dad has a 2013 335i xDrive with the ZF 8spd auto, and everything you mentioned above except the launch control also applies to that car. The locking torque converter plus extra ratios means the auto is more efficient than the manual, it's seamless at WOT shifts, and it downshifts beautifully with a perfectly timed throttle blip (and it can even skip gears if necessary - if you're cruising around in full auto mode at 40mph in 7th or so, and you put your foot down, it'll drop straight to 2nd without going through any of the gears in between, which surprised the hell out of me the first time I experienced it). The paddles respond instantly too - I can honestly say it feels pretty much as fast as a double clutch gearbox to me.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by chrisl

Interestingly, my dad has a 2013 335i xDrive with the ZF 8spd auto, and everything you mentioned above except the launch control also applies to that car. The locking torque converter plus extra ratios means the auto is more efficient than the manual, it's seamless at WOT shifts, and it downshifts beautifully with a perfectly timed throttle blip (and it can even skip gears if necessary - if you're cruising around in full auto mode at 40mph in 7th or so, and you put your foot down, it'll drop straight to 2nd without going through any of the gears in between, which surprised the hell out of me the first time I experienced it). The paddles respond instantly too - I can honestly say it feels pretty much as fast as a double clutch gearbox to me.

Yeah I suspect the newest generation of autos in high-end cars are very close to dual-clutch boxes in terms of performance and efficiency. The ZF 8 spd is supposed to be a very good unit from what I've heard. And none of the jerkiness at low speed of a DSG.

For a typical automatic vs. DSG though, the gap is much larger in my experience. It's not until you get to the very best autos where the gap narrows.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Yeah I suspect the newest generation of autos in high-end cars are very close to dual-clutch boxes in terms of performance and efficiency. The ZF 8 spd is supposed to be a very good unit from what I've heard. And none of the jerkiness at low speed of a DSG.

For a typical automatic vs. DSG though, the gap is much larger in my experience. It's not until you get to the very best autos where the gap narrows.

You should check out the new Mazda Skyactiv autos, the torque converter locks right away and the shifts are super fast and crisp. The only problem is that they're only 6 speed but have very wide ratios, so the acceleration is kind of crappy.

Bleh, I understand that automatics with paddle shift is faster, and I'm sure it's good on a track, but if you really want fast why not just leave it in full automatic mode? Go to the track, press the sport mode button or whatever, disable overdrive, and just floor it, that should make you go faster than trying to decide the shifts yourself.

That's why I like CVT more, there are no surprise shifts since it just gives you exactly the revs you need (within the capabilities of the transmission). It's just too bad they're not efficient. When I drove a Prius the first time I thought the e-CVT sucked, but then I drove a CVT Sentra and realized it's actually pretty nice when you have more normal throttle control.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

You should check out the new Mazda Skyactiv autos, the torque converter locks right away and the shifts are super fast and crisp. The only problem is that they're only 6 speed but have very wide ratios, so the acceleration is kind of crappy.

Actually I may be looking for a family sedan or crossover in a few years to replace the GTI. Will be a good time to test out the Mazda Skyactiv autos. I imagine with the efficiency focus of the Skyactive program, they probably took a lot of time to optimize those transmissions.

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Bleh, I understand that automatics with paddle shift is faster, and I'm sure it's good on a track, but if you really want fast why not just leave it in full automatic mode? Go to the track, press the sport mode button or whatever, disable overdrive, and just floor it, that should make you go faster than trying to decide the shifts yourself.

Hah I'm one of those guys. I took my GTI to the track and could not resist using the paddle shifters. I know leaving it in sport/auto mode would be the same, but there's something fun about clicking the upshift paddle under hard braking. I can't explain it.

[LBC Por Siempre]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

981 Cayman 2.7, 18" wheels PDK no sport chrono, no PASM, normal exhaust.

PDK with no.Sport Chrono is dumb. Sounds like someone at a dealer ordered that car. The folks at the dealerships always seem to be the absolute worst people when it comes to outfitting a Porsche.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by LBC Por Siempre

PDK with no.Sport Chrono is dumb. Sounds like someone at a dealer ordered that car. The folks at the dealerships always seem to be the absolute worst people when it comes to outfitting a Porsche.

No it wasn't a dealer order car, it has almost no options (that's not how I know though). All the dealer cars I've seen are loaded with 20k in options, 20" wheels and crap every single time. I think that regardless of sport chrono, it's disappointing that you have to put it in sport mode or else there is shift lag.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by LBC Por Siempre

PDK with no.Sport Chrono is dumb.

Ordering any Porsche sports car without sport chrono is dumb.

[dem00n]

DCT are starting to be in everything now...