Engine Failure (#4 Rod Bearing + Short Block)

[Pete156]

One thing everyone has to remember. Mechanics at dealerships normally do not open 6 individual quarts of oil and empty them into the crankcase. They use a programmed and pressurized hose from a large tank to fill the engine. Perhaps the control mechanism which registers total quantity pumped was inaccurate or not calibrated or not reset to 0, and the mechanic never officially checked the dipstick. May very well be the case.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Hawaiian

You have had an extreme case of bad luck sir. It's unfair that some guys can have a bulletproof car for 500k miles no matter how hard they abuse it, and some guys can't get off the lot with their car without it going down.

I hope things turn for you shortly.

No bulletproof FA20's 5000k mi FA20's yet, hope there will be. Or they sell enough of them that a long block doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

Originally Posted by Mikem53

Today's engines are manufactured to handle just about any abuse you can throw at them. There was just an article in car and driver where they talked about the durability test used for modern day production engines. They are designed to handle abuse and neglect from the get-go. I followed the manufacturers suggestions for break-in. Just makes sense to me that all these new components and surfaces need to be broken in and form wear patterns that will last their entire service life. I've done this with all my cars and have had good experiences over the last 45 years of ownership. I don't think these practices and break in procedures are as important as they used to be in the past. But I feel it can't hurt to drive it easy for the first thousand miles or so..

Not the FA20, its an oddball with the DI boxer deisigne it is practically as different as those engines tested as a wankel. Surely you wouldn't say a RX-8 wankel is bullet proof?




You just about can't physically burn 4 quarts in 2000 km with a DI engine, smoke would be pouring out the exhaust, It really hard to burn 4 quarts in 20000km without a CEL, the combustion chanber/spark plugs will be plugged. A leak would have been noticeable in your driveway.


Pretty obvious they filled it at the oil change like it was a 1.5L 4 cylinder Toyota and just didn't put enough oil in it. Do the same job hour after hour, week, after week, year after year and you can see its as easy mistake to make.


As far as the 2nd short block was is new straight from the factory or a rebuild? I have seen a lot of bad reports with rebuild FA20's the procedures are a bit unique and complicated so the second block failure isn't too much of a surprise.


Moral of the story don't let others work on your car, avoid the stealership.

[BRZnut]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

You know what's scary?

You can have rod knock from a spun bearing, and STILL not have a check engine light.

Isn't that because all the codes and check engine lights are for monitoring emission related activities of the engine?


Man that's a crazy story....almost makes me fearful to take my BRZ out of the garage!

[regal]

Originally Posted by BRZnut

Isn't that because all the codes and check engine lights are for monitoring emission related activities of the engine?


Man that's a crazy story....almost makes me fearful to take my BRZ out of the garage!

It monitors more than just emissions but I wouldn't expect a rod bearing to trip the light till its too late. The real surprise is 4 quarts low and the oil sender light didn't come on, I have hard time believing that one.

[Porsche]

Another possibility here is that the engine oil level, whatever it actually was, had nothing at all to do with the bearing failure and subsequent damage. It is possible that the low oil level, which may not have been as low as "reported" by the mechanic, was just a coincidence.

Now, Toyota's keen interest in this engine and this failure might be more readily explained. As I alluded to in an earlier post, what is it that Toyota knows or suspects that they are not sharing with the owner? Consumers permitting their oil levels to run too low is surely commonplace. This phenomenon hardly warrants a second look.

So, why the keen interest here by Toyota?

It is possible that this engine was not four quarts low on oil, but only around two quarts low. I'm not sure the mechanic did a "scientifically reliable" measurement of the oil, and he might have skewed the results of his "measurements" in Toyota's favor.

If Toyota were interested in whether the owner had abused this engine through neglect, then why have they not pressed him about this? I'm assuming they have not, else Erik would have told us so.

Perhaps our focus on the oil level is a mistake and a distraction. Perhaps, as has been suggested, this failure is the consequence of an inherent design flaw. Now, THAT would account for Toyota's unusual interest.

Perhaps, too, the second failure has nothing to do with the first failure. They just coincidentally followed one upon the other. Nothing more than bad luck, perhaps. Or, maybe it's the same failure for the same, or similar, reasons.

I wonder whether Toyota will be entirely forthcoming with Erik?

I'm attempting to summon my best "Robert Pirsig" self. (That would be the author of the extraordinary work, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.") Pirsig is a genius. Alas, I am not.

[Hawaiian]

Originally Posted by regal

No bulletproof FA20's 5000k mi FA20's yet, hope there will be. Or they sell enough of them that a long block doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

I meant cars in general, not the twins specifically.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Porsche

?

I'm attempting to summon my best "Robert Pirsig" self. (That would be the author of the extraordinary work, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.") Pirsig is a genius. Alas, I am not.

Yea but your thinking like me, they used to dismiss posts like yours as Regalnoia (see screen name) around here.


The support he's getting from Toyota is unusual, maybe a batch of engines with oil pumps they knew ere slightly out of spec or something like that. I remember a General Motors holding a few hundred torque converters that magically fixed themselves when we ran out back in the early 90's.


Hope Toyota isn't pulling crap like this.




PS Love Pirsig too My old sig:
"The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed."


-Robert M Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcyle Maintenance

[andrew20195]

Originally Posted by Porsche

Another possibility here is that the engine oil level, whatever it actually was, had nothing at all to do with the bearing failure and subsequent damage. It is possible that the low oil level, which may not have been as low as "reported" by the mechanic, was just a coincidence.

Now, Toyota's keen interest in this engine and this failure might be more readily explained. As I alluded to in an earlier post, what is it that Toyota knows or suspects that they are not sharing with the owner? Consumers permitting their oil levels to run too low is surely commonplace. This phenomenon hardly warrants a second look.

So, why the keen interest here by Toyota?

It is possible that this engine was not four quarts low on oil, but only around two quarts low. I'm not sure the mechanic did a "scientifically reliable" measurement of the oil, and he might have skewed the results of his "measurements" in Toyota's favor.

If Toyota were interested in whether the owner had abused this engine through neglect, then why have they not pressed him about this? I'm assuming they have not, else Erik would have told us so.

Perhaps our focus on the oil level is a mistake and a distraction. Perhaps, as has been suggested, this failure is the consequence of an inherent design flaw. Now, THAT would account for Toyota's unusual interest.

Perhaps, too, the second failure has nothing to do with the first failure. They just coincidentally followed one upon the other. Nothing more than bad luck, perhaps. Or, maybe it's the same failure for the same, or similar, reasons.

I wonder whether Toyota will be entirely forthcoming with Erik?

I'm attempting to summon my best "Robert Pirsig" self. (That would be the author of the extraordinary work, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.") Pirsig is a genius. Alas, I am not.

I think you're overly paranoid. Toyota is interested in this car because they just put an engine in it not two months ago and it's suffered another failure, and they probably want to make sure the dealer isn't trying to pull a fast one with them.

As far as measuring how low the oil was, generally the tech would drain the oil into a gallon jug and subtract from the oil change amount. Not necessarily a precise measurement, but if only 1.5 quarts comes out of the oil pan, it's "about four quarts low" If you're monitoring oil consumption, you need more precision. If you're diagnosing an engine failure, this method is close enough.

As to how the oil got low, I've seen dealerships with bulk oil controls in the parts department which will cut off oil flow to the gun when it hits a predetermined amount (presumably to keep techs from stealing oil). In such a system, techs will often assume the parts guy dialed up the correct amount of oil and not check it (which is dumb. I always pull the dipstick after an oil change just to doublecheck myself). So that's a scenario where an oil change could result in only two quarts of oil put into an engine.

As to the second failure, there have been a decent amount of manufacturing errors with these engines. FHI is having serious growing pains and it unfortunately seems to be affecting their build quality.

[Reaper]

I wonder if the dealerships bulk oil is 5w30 non synthetic. Like its been said, most dealers fill oil from a hose coming out of a wall. When I worked for a dealer in 2004 every toyota got the same oil from our bulk tank. If a car needed something else we had to get it in bottles from the parts dept. How often do you think that happened? I'm not in the industry anymore but I havent heard of dealers buying 0w20 synthetic by the barrel. I bet you got 30weight dyno oil in there and toyota suspects it as well. Just my 2cents.

[andrew20195]

Originally Posted by Reaper

I'm not in the industry anymore but I havent heard of dealers buying 0w20 synthetic by the barrel. I bet you got 30weight dyno oil in there and toyota suspects it as well. Just my 2cents.

Not necessarily. Our Acura dealer switched to 5w-20 bulk synthetic in the tanks a few years ago, and keeps a barrel of 5w-30 for the few older cars that can't use the thinner stuff. My Subaru dealership has 0w-20 synthetic in the tank and we keep a barrel of 5w-30. It's cheap synthetic, though. We only use Subaru 5w-30 out of the bottle in the turbo cars.

That's a possibility, though a slim one. I assume that using a 0w-20 factory fill means the FA20 runs smaller clearances in the bearings, and using a 5w-30 non-synthetic could result in accelerated wear, but it seems unlikely that would happen in only 2000 miles or so.

[Reaper]

True it is a slim chance but so is burning all that oil and spinning rod bearings is two bottom ends.its the only constant that stands out to me through the internet portal. (I mean without being involved and present.)

[regal]

Originally Posted by Reaper

True it is a slim chance but so is burning all that oil and spinning rod bearings is two bottom ends.its the only constant that stands out to me through the internet portal. (I mean without being involved and present.)

They would have reused the oil pump.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

You know what's scary?

You can have rod knock from a spun bearing, and STILL not have a check engine light.

Normal in all cars though. As long as there is sufficient pressure at the sensor no low oil pressure/CELs/etc will light up.

With a proper oil pressure gauge you will see the flucuations from a spun bearing. If you shut it off right away you can almost always save the block/crank/etc. Our race car suffered one finally at ~222k or so, shut it off and tore it down (well our sponsoring shop LHT Performance did anyways) and the crank, rod, etc were fine still.. just needed new bearings.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Porsche

Just a note to the young folks out there, perhaps driving their first new car:

I check the oil of every new car I buy before I drive it off the lot at the dealership. (Along with other basic checks, including setting my tire pressures.)

EVERY DAY for the next month, I check the oil, whether I drive the car or not. Every day. I also check the pavement beneath the car where it's parked.

It's new, and just because it hasn't leaked yet at any of the many seals, doesn't mean it won't start leaking today. So, I check. It takes me less than two minutes.

After a month, I feel confident the seals are all good, and the tires are holding their pressure and I don't need to check them (and other things) daily.

I recommend these precautions to all new car owners.

After that, I'll check things weekly for as long as I own the car.

It's like life insurance; one does not buy insurance expecting a catastrophe, one buys it because of the catastrophic consequences in the unlikely event of death (or major oil loss).

With a Porsche you have to, just to identify where to put drip pans under a new one!

Sorry man, had to..