FRS AEM Cold Air Intake

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by SkullWorks

Thanks, you are probably convincing AEM right now that this community is even less capable of intelligent conversation than Zilvia.

Tranzformer, have you had both bumpers off and upside down in your lap...didn't think so so drop it, there is potential, you cannot speak definitively you are only being argumentative.

There are different lower bumper treatments, different fog light options and different vent shapes,

I have a friend in JP who's tuner shop has both the 86 and BRZ in house and passed this info along to me.

I think AEM has more issues than worrying about a discussion on an Internet forum. Not sure why you are taking a discussion so personally?

[SkullWorks]

Sorry I think you are lying you are too much of a show off and would have mentioned that in the first post as a clarification,


case in point YOU still haven't seen them and can't comment personally...not to mention you are wrong. There are differences in the back side, I listed a couple already.

[Calum]

wow, really guys. SkullWorks, 1) you're probably right, and the chances are high enough that AEM isn't going to take anyone's word for it. 2) You know that and should know that most of the rest of us do to. So, be the bigger person and walk away. This isn't how you great a guest.

Ken, welcome to the forum and good luck. We eagerly await the end results of your R&D.

[86design]

well welcome Ken

[NERO]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

It is the same exact car. It will be the same between the two. They won't differ.

He has 4,206 posts in 1 year, he must be right!

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by SkullWorks

you guys,

Come on this is AEM have you looked at the troubles they have gone through recently to provide HP gains on the latest cars, going so far as to create an electronic filter of sorts that intercepts and modifies the MAF signal to prevent the ECU from auto correcting any gains that maybe made in airflow into the engine?

Most if not all Aftermarket companies are looking for one of each car to test all the products on just to be sure that they don't have to pay return shipping and piss of the customer base. the differences are minute but they exist, and proper R&D means you look at the whole data set not just half of it regardless of how identical it may be.

Um, then why did you offer a BRZ when he asked for an FR-S? Heh...

Serious note, what was the issue that the electronic filter had to correct? The tC was one that needed this correction, right? MAF cars?

My old Supras were Karman Vortex (weak), then speed-density, so I'm not too familiar with what the MAF does when it gets airflow amounts that it doesn't expect.

[SkullWorks]

The MAF doesn't much care, it just outputs a voltage relative to airflow based on a table, but the ECU's of today know what TP, RPM and MAP values add up to what cell in the lookup tables if it arrives at a different cell because the MAF value is higher suggesting more airflow, the ECU will respond in different ways to try and correct or account for the assumed poorly preforming sensor, undoing slowly thru the self learning function, whatever gains you may have made thru increased efficiency air intake piping or filter

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by SkullWorks

The MAF doesn't much care, it just outputs a voltage relative to airflow based on a table, but the ECU's of today know what TP, RPM and MAP values add up to what cell in the lookup tables if it arrives at a different cell because the MAF value is higher suggesting more airflow, the ECU will respond in different ways to try and correct or account for the assumed poorly preforming sensor, undoing slowly thru the self learning function, whatever gains you may have made thru increased efficiency air intake piping or filter

That sounds like it cross-checks the MAF sensor with a speed-density setup. If they aren't the same instead of adding fuel, it is going to assume something is broken? But the amount of air has increased to the engine regardless of what the ECU thinks is going on so doing that would lean it out, right? Or then it just pulls timing when it senses knock starting?

Fucksakes...

Was this just the tC? An AccessPort should be able to work around this, though...

Edit: Section in red isn' right, either. Speed density would recognize the increased airflow, but just wouldn't have the fueling cells right for the rpm.

So are they using a speed-density 'base' with the MAF sensor to 'trim' the fuel more accurately? And if the MAF is just for trim it will have a narrower operating range that can be easily detected when it goes 'out of bounds'? Argh...

[serialk11r]

Wait uh, the ECU is supposed to detect the mass of air coming in, and inject the correct amount of gasoline for that amount of air...if you have more air, it will increase injector pulse width if the firing rate is the same. A slightly better VE intake is like driving into a valley with higher air pressure, the ECU knows to maintain whatever air fuel ratio. Am I missing something?

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Wait uh, the ECU is supposed to detect the mass of air coming in, and inject the correct amount of gasoline for that amount of air...if you have more air, it will increase injector pulse width if the firing rate is the same. A slightly better VE intake is like driving into a valley with higher air pressure, the ECU knows to maintain whatever air fuel ratio. Am I missing something?

Within its intended operating range. This was pretty much it for cars in the early 90's. Now I think with stricter OBD stuff, they may think a sensor is malfunctioning if the reading is higher than expected, and go into a type of 'limp' mode to protect the motor.

Pretty much all of the modded cars (Mk3 Supras) that my buddies have, have gone to speed-density stand-alone ECUs. I'm not familiar with newer factory MAF setups.

[serialk11r]

Oh, so you're saying if maximum airflow exceeds that of stock, it'll go crazy? I guess that could be true. Hard to imagine they don't have some headroom built in though.

[SkullWorks]

I believe it is a self check loop, and lets not forget we don't have a throttle cable so it doesn't have to cut timing it just gives you less air via the throttle plate, it could also limit cam advance,

it is not just a scion or toyota issue I assume this will be the new standard.

http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_artic...ir-intake.aspx

MotoIQ article talks about the technology a bit, I thought they had a better description than what i found in this article, a search for ETI on their site may provide more depth, My above description is just a general shot from the hip attempt to outline the issue that required correction.

[serialk11r]

Oh okay I see, so it's an issue of the MAF not being calibrated correctly for a different intake.

[arghx7]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Oh okay I see, so it's an issue of the MAF not being calibrated correctly for a different intake.

Yes. And on the 370Z intake they are basically installing a resistor because they can't reflash the stock ECU to change the MAF sensor calibration curve. That type of approach has been around for a while, but it's cool that they are including it with the intake.

Originally Posted by Dimman

sounds like it cross-checks the MAF sensor with a speed-density setup

ding ding ding

It's been like that for a long time, and is actually far more complicated than most people think.

Here's a little-known fact. On the most modern cars, any sensor on the vehicle that can affect emissions has to have a diagnostic monitor to meet OBD regulations. The diagnostic monitor is in essence a model or at least a lookup table to determine whether the readings make sense or not. So for example, if you have an exhaust temperature sensor you need to have an exhaust temperature model to calculate whether it is reading correctly or not. And if you don't have the sensor, you have to have a temperature model or at least a lookup table that is calibrated based on dyno testing.

Now, as far as the speed density vs MAF thing: we think they're so different, but they're not. Most modern cars are both, whether they have just a MAF, just a MAP, or both sensors.

If you look how the real calculations are done, they incorporate both. Some systems are speed density and use a MAF as a rationality check--Siemens engine management is like that. Some are centered around calculated torque and torque requests, and basically flip a switch for whether it has a MAF sensor or not. Bosch management is like that. Other systems are more airflow-based but have speed density like calculations inside so that they can calculate the residual mass fraction in the engine, the airflow flowing into the cat, the amount of airflow inside the manifolds, and the MBT spark timing.

Another thing you guys have to think about is that there are two different types of MAF sensors: the hot wire, and the hot film. Most Japanese cars use hot wire these days, while a lot of European and American cars use hot film. They respond differently to disturbances in the airflow. Hotwire is probably more sensitive.