OFT log with UEL header/ Perrin intake

[carlitosway6891]

so this is what i got on 93 octane

http://datazap.me/u/carlitosway6891/...&data=1-8-9-12

this was done a few days ago and since then, my car pulls much much harder now....im going to do another log tomorrow but will be switching to E85 tomorrow afternoon =)

[jflogerzi]

The KC Learned value. Can someone explain this. When the number is higher IE positive its adding timing, and when this is a negative number does that mean the ecu is pulling timing? If I have this wrong please correct me

BTW you love E85 if you have headers.

[Yobiwan]

Originally Posted by carlitosway6891

so this is what i got on 93 octane

http://datazap.me/u/carlitosway6891/...&data=1-8-9-12

this was done a few days ago and since then, my car pulls much much harder now....im going to do another log tomorrow but will be switching to E85 tomorrow afternoon =)

car need learning time after OFT tune. try another log few days later.

you wil get better AFR then .

[kiichiro]

Whose e85 tune?

[jamesm]

your car should not need learning time after a tune, imho. that log is off-the-scale rich and pulling timing. by 'giving it time to learn', you mean allowing time for fuel and timing corrections to be written in, both of which shouldn't be there in the first place.

just my .02, but one of the primary goals of tuning a car is eliminating fuel trims and knock correction. this whole idea of relying on fuel trims and knock correction to tune your car for you is just not a great idea.

the reason is because it leads to inconsistency in the tune. on the timing side, even the smallest bit of flkc can seriously impact how much power you're making. we were seeing losses of 10hp or more (on a turbo car) from just -1deg flkc on the dyno. the ecu is far too aggressive in pulling timing, and will almost always pull more than is necessary. this is why tuning up to the point of correction and not beyond it is so important. it allows you to run the most timing possible, as tuning into correction just results in the ecu pulling more than you could've gotten away with without it.

on the fueling side, relying on trims is a bandaid for inaccurate calibration. it results in inconsistent open loop AFRs (which is exactly what you're seeing here), and in cars with modified fuel systems (injectors and maf size, mainly) significant drivability issues. obviously running off-the-scale rich is not the way to make power.

though the computer is smart enough to correct the afr back to something near target fueling (given enough time to adjust), it's still far less than ideal particularly on the timing side and should be optimized if possible.

it can be argued that these issues exist in the stock tune (high trims, timing corrections) and they do, but the entire point of tuning is to improve upon it. i don't think it should be accepted that high trims and consistent knock correction are 'ok', and certainly not optimal on a tuned vehicle.

these are the natural downsides of an ots tune. they're generic, and need to suit a range of configurations operating under a wide variety of conditions. they're basically well-developed base maps. the beauty of these particular roms is that they're open and editable, and those looking to get the most out of them should certainly look to take advantage of that rather than just accepting mediocrity as 'the way it is'. if it can be ideal it should be, because that's what we're tuning for in the first place. most of this stuff is so easy to optimize (especially given a solid base) that there just isn't any good reason not to.

ok rant over lol.

[steve99]

Originally Posted by jflogerzi

The KC Learned value. Can someone explain this. When the number is higher IE positive its adding timing, and when this is a negative number does that mean the ecu is pulling timing? If I have this wrong please correct me

BTW you love E85 if you have headers.

Hi Jamesm was kind enough to explain it to me so I'll have a go

KC learned is knock control learned value.

If all is well (significant knock not detected and timing not being pulled) then the KC Learned value should track the value in the "Knock Correction Advance Max A" table in your tune this table is under "Ignition Advance" in Rom Raider".

So you need to look at this table and check at any given RPM vs Load that the value matches the table if its less then timing has been pulled, if its greater then really weird stuff is happening.

[steve99]

Hey @jamesm agree with above but I,ll put a $1 on his AFR rich problem is due to his Perrin intake and not having the MAF re-calibrated. I think they come with re-scalling numbers but I'd say they have not been done.

KC learned looks ok appears to be tracking the Knock correction advance max A table to a stage 2 uel tune.

I'd say he need's maf re-scalled to suit perrin intake (or go back to stock intake)

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by steve99

Hey @jamesm agree with above but I,ll put a $1 on his AFR rich problem is due to his Perrin intake and not having the MAF re-calibrated. I think they come with re-scalling numbers but I'd say they have not been done.

KC learned looks ok appears to be tracking the Knock correction advance max A table to a stage 2 uel tune.

I'd say he need's maf re-scalled to suit perrin intake (or go back to stock intake)

that's pretty much my point. the common knowledge here seems to be to recommend he 'just drive it out... let it adjust', when that's not the solution to the problem. the solution is scaling the maf properly.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by steve99

Hi Jamesm was kind enough to explain it to me so I'll have a go

KC learned is knock control learned value.

If all is well (significant knock not detected and timing not being pulled) then the KC Learned value should track the value in the "Knock Correction Advance Max A" table in your tune this table is under "Ignition Advance" in Rom Raider".

So you need to look at this table and check at any given RPM vs Load that the value matches the table if its less then timing has been pulled, if its greater then really weird stuff is happening.

that's correct, only that it can't ever be greater than the value in the advance table. kclv is the currently applied advance value, minus any applied correction, so the maximum possible value is the value in the current load/rpm cell in the advance table.

one area that you can see a positive correction value is flkc, but only if iam is less than one, which of course is also very bad and should be resolved. your iam should never, ever be less than 1. this is a global timing correction, i.e. pulling timing across the board. coarse correction is the nuclear option... no bueno. maintaining an iam of 1 is fundamental to making consistent power (and ensuring safety, as if it's dropping it's because the ecu is seeing what it perceives as significant knock). the ability of flkc to be positive under these conditions is what allows the iam to go back up after dropping.

so basically, even though flkc is positive (which you might think could make the kclv greater than the current targeted advance value), this still isn't possible because a condition of it being positive is that iam is less than 1, which necessitates that the kclv itself is less than the advance value in the table to begin with.

[carlitosway6891]

Originally Posted by Yobiwan

car need learning time after OFT tune. try another log few days later.

you wil get better AFR then .

i never got a chance to do another log before i switched out to e85 gas/ tune.....this happened yesterday so ill be giving my car a few days to learn before i do another log

so if my ARF stays rich, i guess i should switch out to the factory intake?

[StormTrooper]

If I really remember correctly the kclv starts at 1 or zero and goes up to the number set in the tune. Meaning that for a certain driving period after a flash you will be somewhere above zero but less than the map max let's say 6 for a given load range.

So in order to know if you are not pulling timing you'd have to compare a log to the tune file?

Also has anyone figured out the tip in knock during low rpm high load? This would pull iam on both stock and all tunes I'd heard of.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by StormTrooper

If I really remember correctly the kclv starts at 1 or zero and goes up to the number set in the tune. Meaning that for a certain driving period after a flash you will be somewhere above zero but less than the map max let's say 6 for a given load range.

So in order to know if you are not pulling timing you'd have to compare a log to the tune file?

Also has anyone figured out the tip in knock during low rpm high load? This would pull iam on both stock and all tunes I'd heard of.

you kclv is going up after some driving because the initial IAM value is not 1. probably 0.7, which is the value in the stock rom. if it's going up to 1 quickly, that's a good thing.

tip-in knock is extremely common on this platform from what i've seen. i've tried everything under the sun to correct it, with a custom map timing correction of manifold pressure delta vs. rpm being the most promising solution so far. i still haven't gotten rid of it entirely.

you can make it such that this tip-in knock will not drop the iam by disabling coarse correction in the 0.6-0.8g/rev, 2-4krpm area that it is most common. this is done by ensuring that the values in the advance map in this area are less than the minimum required to enter coarse correction, ~3.9deg iirc.

[StormTrooper]

Pretty sure I had it in the 3-5 range with iam at one. OFT stg1 tune.

I could be mistaken.

[steve99]

Originally Posted by carlitosway6891

i never got a chance to do another log before i switched out to e85 gas/ tune.....this happened yesterday so ill be giving my car a few days to learn before i do another log

so if my ARF stays rich, i guess i should switch out to the factory intake?

Pretty sure Perrin should have provied MAF scalling figures for the intake, if not ask them for MAF scaling parameters to suit.

You should then be able to edit these into your tune with RomRaider