Poor Sales of Toyota GT86/Scion FR-S Likely To Rule Out New Variants

[CyberFormula]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

Okay now you're comparing used, out if warranty, roadsters (not very convenient might I add) to a very practical 2+2 sports car that can be driven all year round...much MUCH easier than an S2K. So what's out there (new) that's so much more practical, as much fun as these cars, and for less money?

The biggest point that I gave the big WTF to, was that you said they aren't "lookers". Are you kidding me?! That's been a pretty wide margin consensus positive to these cars from most journalist reviews and user reviews.

Finally, your point completely collapsed when you ended with the "86 will survive". Based on what? From what I've seen, sales figures are pretty even globally (if not in favor of NA).

Common' Man!!

[/END RANT]

Same as any trueno and supra of long ago, 86 will survive or be revived if it disappears within the next few years.

2+2 in this car is not practical...... For paying 25k for frs in the USA and much more money else where. I can go for an fd2 type r for that kind of money and it is a 5 seater with 4 doors.

All cars run out of warranty eventually and if I'm comparing it to s2000 it's because is proven platform.

Please show me the consensus that you speak of that is not biased to this forum that it is a good looker. If not I am entitled to my perspective and so are you.

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by CyberFormula

Same as any trueno and supra of long ago, 86 will survive or be revived if it disappears within the next few years.

2+2 in this car is not practical...... For paying 25k for frs in the USA and much more money else where. I can go for an fd2 type r for that kind of money and it is a 5 seater with 4 doors.

All cars run out of warranty eventually and if I'm comparing it to s2000 it's because is proven platform.

Please show me the consensus that you speak of that is not biased to this forum that it is a good looker. If not I am entitled to my perspective and so are you.

I don't even know where to begin...you barely make any sense.

[Rio]

Originally Posted by jenzan

Hi everyone,

Just read this on Motor Authority:

"A senior Toyota official has revealed that poor sales of the GT 86 sports car meant that additional variants, such as the much-hyped convertible and a possible performance version, are likely to be ruled out.

Speaking with Auto Express, Toyota’s European R&D boss Gerald Killmann said the GT 86 was behind sales targets in all major markets, meaning the American-market Scion FR-S as well, and that this has created doubts towards developing further variants of the car.

"A faster version of that car would be at the top of most people's wish lists, but like the cabriolet, it is hard to justify a business case to push either model into production based on the current sales," Killmann said.

Killmann went on to explain that Toyota was unsure why the car wasn’t selling well, especially because most reviews have been quite positive (you can read our first drive report here).

There have been plenty of rumors pertaining to additional variants for the GT 86 and its FR-S twin. They include the aforementioned convertible, a new hybrid model and even a sedan. Sadly, it sounds like none of these will be coming."

Source: http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...t-new-variants

This has to be one of the dumbest business case discussions ever! Well of course sales are down. Toyota's product life cycle per 86 variant is so freaking short and conflicting with itself that the consumer is left wondering what will happen next. They couldn't sell all of their 10 Series and they roll out the Monogram. WTF?

Stock holders are very likely looking at how the SCION/Toyota leadership failed on managing their 86 PLC (Product Life Cycle) and not wondering why it is not selling well.

I have to wonder who the hell made the call on the Monogram and let the consumer wishes become rumors. They should have denied all rumors of a convertible, hold any variants for at least another 6 months. And for the love of Pete... deny any power upgrades and offer them through the TRD program exclusively. Maybe even like @DarrenDriven mentioned to me today, a national TRD circuit like IROC and Miata Spec. Tie in TRD parts sales and marketing, sponsor a Fast N' Furious mini series and you will have a winning product! Pun fully intended :-)

[Rio]

Originally Posted by torqdork

No worries for any P/N on the US cars. Years ago Toyota pledged to provide parts support for any vehicle sold here for at least 25 years. The result is the best "fill rate" and delivery speed of any manufacturer. Today, you can walk into any dealership and find parts for an FJ-40 last sold here in 1983 and if your FJ is out of service, the dealer can order the part "critical" status and get it overnight if the order is placed early in the day.

The only glitch I can foresee is Subaru made parts. I'm not sure about their fill rate or delivery speed.

Don't be that concerned, Subaru parts are also Impreza parts. As I discovered today, Toyota may have engineered the car with existing Subaru parts :-)

[Aaron.H]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

I don't even know where to begin...you barely make any sense.

Agreed, have read the post literally 10 times and mind boggled.

You can drive the twins year round, has good enough power and handling to handle its own ground, seat 4 if needed, good mpg and still go get the groceries if need be(wouldn't suggest Costco though haha) so it's perfectly practical unless you are hauling a family around. If that's the case you shouldn't be in the market for a 2 door car in first place. The price too is affordable, a 2008 S2k still warrants a 27-29k price tag plus it's a roadster, same price as FRS brand new.

Comparing a FD2 to the FRs/Brz is like comparing apples to oranges, they are on 2 different things



Anyways, maybe one day there will be some variants or not, time will tell. I just hope production keeps on getting made (maybe just as long or longer than the S2000 haha)

[Ponwh]

Originally Posted by Chattanooga FR-S

I think that lots of people expect to see things like stereo controls on the steering wheel, back up cameras, things like that, since so many new cars have those. I think even the small cars like Ford Fiestas have those kind of options.

I think I understand the reasoning behind the plain steering wheel, as it is more of a sports car than a comfort car, but when people see the controls on just about every other steering wheel out there, this one looks empty and plain.

Honestly, I was quite glad to see the "nicer" features that the Monogram series includes, as I am coming from a 2003 Toyota Matrix that does not have that stuff. That's why I ordered the Monogram!

Who the hell wants stereo controls and a ugly back up camera on a sports car? Is it that hard to turn your head, or to reach with your arms? (Not directing this post to you, but the people who wants one on the frs in general)

[Rio]

Originally Posted by cycleboy

I think if there were direct competitors coming soon, there could be a desire to keep pace from a business perspective. If you have to fight to get someone to buy an FR-S instead of a 250SX or RX-9 (I made these up), there's a reason to make it more appealing.

In the current market, there's not anything else like the FR-S out there, so people either buy this car or they don't. Not much business incentive to change it.

There's a direct competitor... Mazda MX-5. Even though they are two different classes, they have the same target audience.

[CyberFormula]

Originally Posted by Aaron.H

Agreed, have read the post literally 10 times and mind boggled.

You can drive the twins year round, has good enough power and handling to handle its own ground, seat 4 if needed, good mpg and still go get the groceries if need be(wouldn't suggest Costco though haha) so it's perfectly practical unless you are hauling a family around. If that's the case you shouldn't be in the market for a 2 door car in first place. The price too is affordable, a 2008 S2k still warrants a 27-29k price tag plus it's a roadster, same price as FRS brand new.

Comparing a FD2 to the FRs/Brz is like comparing apples to oranges, they are on 2 different things



Anyways, maybe one day there will be some variants or not, time will tell. I just hope production keeps on getting made (maybe just as long or longer than the S2000 haha)

In summary, as I've said, the frs is a car that is for people that want it. It is not good value for what it is.

You want fast and practical there are better value choices.
You want fast there are better choices.

Frs is a car for those that want it which I can say is sort of in the category of lotus/miata. Those who don't look for speed or practicality as a priority but willing to spend extra money on the driving experience on light weight chassis.

Which brings us back to what this thread is about, why the article may of stated that the car isn't making expectations in sales.

People that shop for performance cars have a lot of choices. With club racers, best bang for the buck for running cost, performance, and cost of the car itself is the priority.

For average individuals who like sport cars they would buy something that looks sporty and has power and it would be enough.

Frs is slightly above the price point currently, even used ones, to be considered good value for a club racer.

For the average individual, they might buy it for many reasons. But if they think this car is good value, this must be like their first performance car they ever bought.

Good value for the given category
All rounder- gti, wrx
Club racer- old civic, miata, s2000, integra type r, used lotus
Muscle- mustang

This is only for USA.

So it comes to the topic of compromise. Some say you can't get what you get from an frs with any other car. But my point is that the frs isn't bad, it just at a price point that doesn't make it a good value in the rest of the world market.

Talking about price,

I bought dc2 type r 22,000 (new)
Gti 23,000 (new)
Nsx 33,000 (20k miles)
Porsche 911 17,000 (1974)

[CyberFormula]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

I don't even know where to begin...you barely make any sense.

That's fine, if the buyer buys the frs, it's because it fits their wants of what they look for in the car.

I would say the frs is a better value than a brand new miata. But that's it.
I would go for fd2 type r if I were to buy a performance car that can be used every day and actually carry 4 adults.

[FRSapex]

Originally Posted by Ponwh

Who the hell wants stereo controls and a ugly back up camera on a sports car? Is it that hard to turn your head, or to reach with your arms? (Not directing this post to you, but the people who wants one on the frs in general)

Exactly. Look at the Datsun 240Z, a great car for your buck. Then the 260Z followed - a little heavier but a bit more torque. Next the 280Z - a lot bigger, a lot heavier. The 280ZX, even bigger and a whole lot heavier. Finally the 280ZX Turbo, a too disco for my taste (T-top roof)but respectable.

All that being said, the 240Z ranks well above the "evolution" models that followed. They are still the Z of choice for road racing , and or, collecting. I've owned four cuz they are light weight, quick, nimble, stylish, and free of creatures comforts - in essence "a true sports car" demanding my full attention when operating.

I bought my 2013 for all the same reasons. I get this car - and could care less if the masses don't.

[DMDominator]

Can't say we didn't see this coming. There's still a ton of unsold 10 Series and then they release Monogram and make the car what it should have been here in the US from launch (or at the very least a trim option). The Monogram manuals will all move but the automatics will sit on the lots just like the 10 Series automatics do. Two variants along with poor brand recognition for Scion, a price tag that is higher than competing coupes and the WRX eating at most potential sales over on the Subaru side... This car is destined to be phased out around 2017.

I still have not decided what to do with mine quite yet. It's paid off and I'm happy with it other than regrets that I didn't go for a manual. Drove manual for 15 years and wanted to give it a break. I've really been looking at the WRX and Focus ST more and more.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by DMDominator

Can't say we didn't see this coming. There's still a ton of unsold 10 Series and then they release Monogram and make the car what it should have been here in the US from launch (or at the very least a trim option). The Monogram manuals will all move but the automatics will sit on the lots just like the 10 Series automatics do. Two variants along with poor brand recognition for Scion, a price tag that is higher than competing coupes and the WRX eating at most potential sales over on the Subaru side... This car is destined to be phased out around 2017.

I still have not decided what to do with mine quite yet. It's paid off and I'm happy with it other than regrets that I didn't go for a manual. Drove manual for 15 years and wanted to give it a break. I've really been looking at the WRX and Focus ST more and more.

Perhaps for my own sanity I should just stay out of this thread. I don't know how or where the idea that the FR-S and BRZ are slow selling in the U.S. took hold besides the original piece of FUD that was the OP's original article, but that notion is patently false.

Sales in the U.S. are not slow for either the FR-S or BRZ.

The FR-S just missed it's 20k unit goal at 18.3k units sold, and the BRZ exceeded it's 6.7k unit goal at 8.5k units sold.

Autoblog.com Brandon Turkus Posted Feb 21st 2014 2:00PM
...Scion's Vice President, Doug Murtha, tells Autoblog that his brand is happy with the sales of its version of the GT86, the FR-S. 18,000 units were sold last year, which Murtha says is "generally in line with original expectations for the car."

"We can only comment on the sales success of the FR-S and not its variants in other markets, in the US, Scion deems the FR-S successful. Considering the FR-S sales performance and the sports car's brand impact, the FR-S is fulfilling its mission for the Scion brand," he went on to say. "Given its success in the US, Scion continues to study ways to enhance and improve the FR-S' appeal in the market as this sports car's lifecycle matures."

We contacted Subaru for comment, and found them to be of a similar opinion: "We're happy with our sales of the BRZ," said Subaru spokesman Dominick Infante, who also pointed that the 8,587 units Subaru moved in the BRZ's first year on sale were "in line with expectations," while January's year-over-year sales were up 27 percent.

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/02/21/t...ing-worldwide/

With exception of high-volume commodity models like the Mustang and Camaro, the FR-S outsold every 370Z, Miata, and GenCoupe combined. Even the lower volume BRZ quadrupled sales of the GenCoupe.

Gonna re-post this here, and then jump off a bridge. **ragequit**

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcFr-s
Actually the sales of this car have been quite good.

http://autos.yahoo.com/news/2013-sci...140013395.html

Toyota (*Europe) is missing the boat.


...AND FOR HEAVEN SAKES THIS!

Quote:
Take a look at the numbers for 2013 for cars relatively in the same segment as the FR-S/GT 86/BRZ (rear-drive, coupe):
Chevrolet Camaro 2013 (US): 80,567
Ford Mustang 2013 (US): 77,186
Scion FR-S 2013 (US): 18,327
Subaru BRZ 2013 (US): 8,587
Nissan 370Z 2013 (US): 6,561
Mazda MX-5 2013 (US): 5,780
Toyota GT 86 2013 (Europe): 5,079
Hyundai Genesis Coupe 2013 (Canada): 1,813
Subaru BRZ 2013 (Europe): 865
As you can see, the FR-S and BRZ sit at third and fourth respectively in total U.S. sales in 2013. Not “slow” at all, it would seem. Especially considering Scion projected yearly totals of “up to 20,000″ for 2013, and between “5,000-7,000″ for the BRZ — both of which were nearly met or exceeded (wardsauto.com). And through a partial sales year in 2012, the FR-S surpassed its projected figure of 10,000 by 1,417 (11,417 sales total).
The U.S. loves this car! I'm sure the sales in Asia have been equally strong. Europe rarely has ever responded to Japanese coupes en masse. So the fact that one of Toyota's Euro's design directors is down on the Subaru power train and would like a BMW diesel is no surprise.

[Deslock]

Originally Posted by CyberFormula

2+2 in this car is not practical...... For paying 25k for frs in the USA and much more money else where. I can go for an fd2 type r for that kind of money and it is a 5 seater with 4 doors.

It's all relative. Compared to my old Miata, this car is very practical.

If you want a new, lightweight, RWD, reasonably priced, and somewhat efficient fun daily driver, the FT86 is the only game in town (if you can get by with a tiny trunk and never need more than two seats, then there's the Miata).

Originally Posted by CyberFormula

In summary, as I've said, the frs is a car that is for people that want it. It is not good value for what it is.

You want fast and practical there are better value choices.
You want fast there are better choices.

Frs is a car for those that want it which I can say is sort of in the category of lotus/miata. Those who don't look for speed or practicality as a priority but willing to spend extra money on the driving experience on light weight chassis.

Which brings us back to what this thread is about, why the article may of stated that the car isn't making expectations in sales.

People that shop for performance cars have a lot of choices. With club racers, best bang for the buck for running cost, performance, and cost of the car itself is the priority.

For average individuals who like sport cars they would buy something that looks sporty and has power and it would be enough.

Frs is slightly above the price point currently, even used ones, to be considered good value for a club racer.

For the average individual, they might buy it for many reasons. But if they think this car is good value, this must be like their first performance car they ever bought.

Good value for the given category
All rounder- gti, wrx
Club racer- old civic, miata, s2000, integra type r, used lotus
Muscle- mustang

This is only for USA.

So it comes to the topic of compromise. Some say you can't get what you get from an frs with any other car. But my point is that the frs isn't bad, it just at a price point that doesn't make it a good value in the rest of the world market.

Talking about price,

I bought dc2 type r 22,000 (new)
Gti 23,000 (new)
Nsx 33,000 (20k miles)
Porsche 911 17,000 (1974)

Some of the new cars (with various trim levels) frequently discussed on this forum:

2014 $22,095 Abarth
2014 $22,300 Veloster Turbo
2014 $22,510 Mustang V6
2013 $22,515 Si
2014 $23,150 GC V6 GT
2014 $23,600 MCS
2014 $23,720 Miata Sport
2013 $24,200 MS3
2014 $24,600 FRS
2014 $25,095 GTI
2014 $25,595 BRZ Premium
2014 $25,995 WRX
2014 $26,350 GC 2T
2014 $26,610 Mustang V6 Premium
2014 $26,905 Miata Club
2014 $27,550 Miata GT
2014 $27,595 BRZ Limited
2014 $28,495 WRX Premium
2014 $29,300 GC 2T Premium
2014 $29,350 GC V6
2014 $29,495 WRX Limited
2014 $29,695 GTI Drivers Edition
2014 $30,100 MCS JCW
2014 $31,210 Mustang GT
2014 $34,495 STI
2014 $35,310 Mustang GT Premium
2014 $37,845 STI Limited

They all have pros and cons. The FT86 pricing seems OK to me, keeping in mind that most of the others are sporty variants of high volume mainstream cars (reduces costs).

So if you don't mind understeer, there are FWD cars that'll give you more bang for your buck. If you don't mind portly dynamics, there are other RWD cars that'll that give you more bang for your buck. I wrote before:

Originally Posted by Deslock

There's not a lot of profit in a relatively low volume vehicles at this price-point, and small RWD coupes are halo cars (lots of mainstream appeal, but few mainstream buyers).

[Deslock]

There's been some revisionism in this thread regarding price. A recap:

Originally Posted by Deslock

Rumor timeline:

• 2007: $17-18k for 120 hp 1.5L RWD.
• 2009: 2.0L RWD concept introduced with a target from "around $20k" to "low $20,000s". Power unknown (rumors put it at 157, 180, or 200 HP).
• 2011: 200 HP 2.0L RWD starting at low $20,000s to $25k.

Given that the Si is $22k, there was no way a lighter, RWD, 200 HP FT86 was going to be less than $23k. Its starting price of $24k is only ~4% more than that. BFD.