Who wants E85 on Oahu?

[Rougenite]

As the title says. I called Aloha Corp today nad talked to a Mr. John Myers (spelling). No panties dropping yet, but I want it here!

He is going to look into it and give me a call back. I will update the thread as I get more information. There has been some recent push to get it here, not just from me!

Matthew,

Further to our discussion via email yesterday, here is a recap of the challenges with offering E 85 in the retail marketplace:

* On a national basis there has been much discussion and potential regulation about offering E 15 at retail. With this in mind there are State regulations that may be at issue as fuel must first be approved by the State in which it is marketed. It is unclear at this time what the State's position may be on marketing simply E 15 must less E 85. Other factors in this category are fire code standards, OSHA, etc.

How do we get the state approval? Has to do with state legislature and the fire code. Approval has not been granted.
Can we start a petition requesting E85? Aloha will not put their name on the petition. We do not want to take sides
This is already sold on the bases. Does that mean the state doesn't need to approve having it there? The bases have their own fire marshal that allowed E85.
So the bases do not have to worry about state law/fire codes? Not for this.
OSHA shouldn't really be an issue, they already transport it to the base. Seems we may have to fight the state to get it approved. Correct. The state approves what fuels will be dispensed in Hawaii.

* If there was a clear path with the State to allow marketing of E 85, there are significant liability concerns about mis-fueling. That is, a retailer can potentially be held liable if a consumer ignores decals and warning labels on the dispensers and an unauthorized product is dispensed into a non approved engine.

Significant how? That's not any different than some idiot pumping diesel into a regular car. Diesel pumps usually have a green handle. I have seen E85 pumps with yellow. Didn't get a response, more of a chuckle

* Not only does the underground or above ground tank system have to be compatible with the product being sold( E 85 ); but, all the materials used in the entire distribution system have to be compatible.

This makes it seem like a money thing to Aloha. The bases have above ground tanks (which is cheaper for labor) and the pump can be placed right next to it, instead of incorporating it into the regular gas pumps. I didn't get this far, he wanted to end our 11 minute call >_<

I will be happy to speak with you direct regarding any further questions you may have.

Kind Regards,

Larry Adams
Aloha Petroleum, Ltd.
1132 Bishop Street, Suite 1700

This is what I got after a single day of actually talking to Aloha. I would love some feedback, other ways to fight. Does anybody have friends that work for important positions in the state? IDK like a council member or something.


1334: Added information from the phone call.

[Crackseed]

Would E85 be worthwhile for our cars though? I mean isn't it below the 91 or better octane we want?

[Rougenite]

E85 would benefit anybody that has the ability to tune their car. The octane is actually higher than the 91/92 we have out here. Should be around 105.

[markmatley]

Or we can delve into xylene and toulene mixtures? Effective octane depending on how much additive there is to fuel.

Using 91 as our standard gas octane, and 117 for Xylene, X&Y are gallons for each component:
((91 * X) + (117 * Y)) / Total gallons = octane for your total gallons.

So if you want an octane of 95 (just to be safe with your stock OEM engine tune) and a full tank of 12.5 gallons (I run my tank down to about 0.1-0.2 gallons left and always fill near 12.5 G):
You'd want X= 10.5 gallons of gas and Y= 2 gallons of xylene.

The only thing that holds me back from this is how much of cooling xylene produces as opposed to water-meth injection cooling? For instance, will my xylene mixture be good for lets say dd and then occasional drags at PCI, or dd'ing to the autocross track and participating without having to lug around race gas? Will my engine overheat more so in traffic and heat soak? This I have no clue.

When the track was here, and I rode my cbr1000rr, the mix would work wonders. Of course removing restrictive air flow fairings around the radiator and engine helped with cooling when riding out to Kapolei and partaking in drags at the time.

Aside from making race gas, I would love E85 here. But corn juice is near or more expensive than premium in most states....I wonder how much it would be here? Should we just all ban together and open our own gas station?

[brz_star21]

Of course it's about money for Aloha. They're a for profit business for goodness sake. LOL. If the numbers don't make it financially viable, especially with all the red tape to have the state approve it then it won't be feasible at this point in time.

I'm sure they've already researched the profitability of E85 since its inception but roughly similar to Hydrogen power, there's a lot of red tape to get through with infrastructure, laws, public education/awareness, and public acceptance to name just a few hurdles.

There are dummies out there believe it or not on base regardless of signs or colors noting the tank is E85 that fill their non-E85 government vehicle with the stuff. Blame it on lack of knowledge of what E85 actually is our simply not caring, there are tons of reasons.

Personally don't think it's time right now for E85. Unless the petroleum companies want to invest in the infrastructure and public education/awareness then its not worth it.

[Rougenite]

Originally Posted by markmatley

Or we can delve into xylene and toulene mixtures? Effective octane depending on how much additive there is to fuel.

Using 91 as our standard gas octane, and 117 for Xylene, X&Y are gallons for each component:
((91 * X) + (117 * Y)) / Total gallons = octane for your total gallons.

So if you want an octane of 95 (just to be safe with your stock OEM engine tune) and a full tank of 12.5 gallons (I run my tank down to about 0.1-0.2 gallons left and always fill near 12.5 G):
You'd want X= 10.5 gallons of gas and Y= 2 gallons of xylene.

The only thing that holds me back from this is how much of cooling xylene produces as opposed to water-meth injection cooling? For instance, will my xylene mixture be good for lets say dd and then occasional drags at PCI, or dd'ing to the autocross track and participating without having to lug around race gas? Will my engine overheat more so in traffic and heat soak? This I have no clue.

When the track was here, and I rode my cbr1000rr, the mix would work wonders. Of course removing restrictive air flow fairings around the radiator and engine helped with cooling when riding out to Kapolei and partaking in drags at the time.

Aside from making race gas, I would love E85 here. But corn juice is near or more expensive than premium in most states....I wonder how much it would be here? Should we just all ban together and open our own gas station?

Ahhhhh maths...my greatest enemy, we meet again! I am sorry I know nothing of Xylene. But I have run water/meth before. I hated checking the tank, and worrying if it was gonna run out on my 'spirited' drives to work haha. Lemme put my glasses on and look for some info on Xylene.

Also, we should ban together and make our own! There are PLENTY of people that would love to have E85.

[Rougenite]

Originally Posted by brz_star21

Of course it's about money for Aloha. They're a for profit business for goodness sake. LOL. If the numbers don't make it financially viable, especially with all the red tape to have the state approve it then it won't be feasible at this point in time.

I'm sure they've already researched the profitability of E85 since its inception but roughly similar to Hydrogen power, there's a lot of red tape to get through with infrastructure, laws, public education/awareness, and public acceptance to name just a few hurdles.

There are dummies out there believe it or not on base regardless of signs or colors noting the tank is E85 that fill their non-E85 government vehicle with the stuff. Blame it on lack of knowledge of what E85 actually is our simply not caring, there are tons of reasons.

Personally don't think it's time right now for E85. Unless the petroleum companies want to invest in the infrastructure and public education/awareness then its not worth it.

I get the 'for profit' part of a company, I work for a huge one. Bottom lines always mean something. It may have costs up front, but over time it will pay for itself.

There is only one piece of red tape that I gather right now. Fire Marshal codes.(Have not gotten a straight answer as to which code it actually IS though) Who knows when that was actually updated?

The only possible infrastructure I can think of is the actual tank and pump. Which as I put in the first post, should be separate from the other pumps, and not next to them. E85 is already brought to the island, and driven from the port to the bases, which means the trucks and ships are there with the proper safety requirements.

As far as public approval: The Nazi state of hate all car enthusiasts (California) has like 80 pumps total. With all their CARB/Smog requirements if E85 was bad for the environment, you would think they wouldn't want it.

E85 fluctuates in price based on cost of Corn. Profitability has been there since...2006?(Have to find a source, believe it was late 2006) 2012 had a small loss because corn went up so much. That's just the way economy works, its the same for gas.

Public education/awareness training? You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink. How would you suggest they even do that? Put it on the news? Make a documentary? The majority of people wouldn't even bother to watch it. The information on E85 is on the internet as well...how many people do you know that don't have internet of some type? (phone, computer, tablet, etc.) The bigger issue would be laziness. Most (not all) want to be spoon fed the information or have no drive to learn.

In Hawaii it is mandatory for gas stations to have at least E10. (Enacted 2006). There is already exemptions for it. (HB-791) E15 is on the way as well. Check out SEMA's website. They fight for and against E85. Cars older than 2001 may not be able to handle ethanol, but there are still non ethanol tanks on island. I don't think asking for one E85 pump is a huge deal because of that.

I completely agree there are dummies out there and we as a society do cater to them. Might sound harsh, but we shouldn't be. The more you do the worse it is going to get. Look at the warning label for coffee being hot. Really?

When will the right time be? E85 been around for almost a decade. Should Hawaii really remain 10 years behind? There are flex fuel vehicles out here. Why sell them if they cant even be utilized like they should be?

I am sorry but the reasons we don't have E85 is because people don't want to budge, same reason we still don't have the track operational on this island.

I do appreciate your inputs though, its more points for argument as it makes me think more and bring up different points! Been busy with work haven't even called Chevron or Shell yet.

[givemeporknow]

I heard that there were E85 stations on some bases. Has anyone confirmed this and are we able to get the gas for our POVs?

[Kid90]

E85 would be great, but with no track on oahu... don't get me wrong here I think it would be cool to have it. Wouldn't really make much of a difference because, don't most E85 users have to modify their cars considerably or change their fuel system and ECU to run it? correct me if Im wrong.

We need a track! lol when are we guna get a track? lol.. the same question thats been asked since like the shutdown of KRP.

if anything can make your own gasoline too, another option. I've looked into it and we can be like the guys from Cars the movie selling our own home brewed gas lol